IRC office hours/2009-10-13

You changed the topic to "Discussion of Wikimedia Foundation's Strategy Project | LiquidThreads is deployed on strategy wiki! | Translation updates: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Call_for_participation/Appeal_letter".

[2:50pm] eekim joined the chat room.

[2:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: Hey eekim

[2:51pm] eekim: hi philippe. hi all.

[2:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: 'tis a quiet channel so far

[2:52pm] mpeel left the chat room.

[2:55pm] Dedalus_: alo Philippe|Wiki

[2:55pm] Philippe|Wiki: Hello Dedalus_

[2:55pm] Dedalus_: you're still looking for applications aren't you?

[2:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: We are, but they need to get in fairly quickly, because the selection committee is doing their work right now

[2:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: volunteer.wikimedia.org is the link

[2:57pm] Dedalus_: do you know what should be behind the semicolon in

[2:57pm] Philippe|Wiki: Dedalus_: So far the only thing that has been communicated is what I put in the template, which is 1

[2:59pm] Dedalus_: my experimenting shows so far anything goes ... 1, 2, 'undocumented feature', 0 it shows all the same ...

[3:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: I don't see the point of the experimentation. At this point, Werdna has given us the variable to use, so that's the one I'm going to use

[3:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: There may be other back-side features that are affected by that variable.

[3:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: so until he gives other instruction, I think we're best to stay with the format he's given us.

[3:00pm] eekim: dedalus, it's worth posting those questions to the LiquidThreads lab page

[3:01pm] eekim: i know werdna's monitoring that closely

[3:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: He already did

[3:01pm] eekim: oh, okay, forget what i just said, then

[3:01pm] • gopher65 does *not* like liquid threads

[3:01pm] eekim: what don't you like?

[3:01pm] gopher65: It's ugly as hell, and it to all intents and purposes prevents the use of wikicode

[3:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: gopher65: I'm sorry to hear that I know Werdna would apprecaite the feedback if you can lay out exactly what you dislike.

[3:02pm] gopher65: It looks like it was copied straight from... wikihow?

[3:02pm] eekim: the ui needs improvement... and i expect it will

[3:02pm] eekim: what do you mean about preventing the use of wikicode?

[3:02pm] gopher65: If we're going to go with a route like that, my requirements are this:

[3:02pm] brassratgirl_ joined the chat room.

[3:02pm] gopher65: 1) That it be a WYSIWYG editor (pretty basic requirement)

[3:02pm] eekim: hey phoebe!

[3:02pm] brassratgirl_: yo!

[3:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: gopher, you'd be amazed at how much disagreement there is on the WYSIWYG issue Personally, I'd like it too, though.

[3:03pm] brassratgirl_: eekim: feeling rained out yet?

[3:03pm] eekim: it's nice and cozy here right now

[3:03pm] gopher65: 2) That instead of inserting screwed up, ugly code into the talk page, it inserts properly formated, person-readable wikicode

[3:03pm] eekim: i love the rain... a few days a year

[3:03pm] gopher65: I've never seen a thread system that would meet requirement number 2

[3:03pm] gopher65: And this one is no different

[3:03pm] aude: hey!

[3:04pm] eekim: hi katie!

[3:04pm] eekim: gopher65, i'm stlil confused about 2

[3:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: gopher, i'm not sure what you mean by that? can you give a "for instance"?

[3:04pm] lyzzy joined the chat room.

[3:04pm] eekim: hey lyzzy!

[3:04pm] Dedalus_: what i notice is that the recent changes page gets flooded with messages

[3:04pm] • Keegan_ was attempting to catch a cat nap

[3:05pm] lyzzy: hi eekim and all

[3:05pm] • Natalie farts.

[3:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: Dedalus, recent changes gets a message for... you know... every change?

[3:05pm] eekim: ah, our head cheerleader

[3:05pm] gopher65: one sec

[3:05pm] eekim: hi Natalie. sorry to miss you while i was in DC

[3:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie has pep.

[3:05pm] Natalie: Yes, that was a shame.

[3:06pm] gopher65: Here is an example of something that looks similar to how liquidthreads looks:

[3:06pm] gopher65: http://www.wikihow.com/index.php?title=Discussion:Main-Page&action=edit

[3:06pm] gopher65: (that's a wikihow talk page, please don't edit it;)

[3:06pm] gopher65: )

[3:06pm] Philippe|Wiki: Gopher, have you looked at LiquidThreads today?

[3:07pm] Natalie: Huh?

[3:07pm] gopher65: not today, no

[3:07pm] Philippe|Wiki: You might wanna

[3:07pm] Natalie: LiquidThreads doesn't resemble that at all...

[3:07pm] gopher65: It did last time I looked at it:P

[3:07pm] gopher65: screwed up code inserted onto the talk pages

[3:07pm] eekim: liquidthreads uses its own tables. it doesn't write to the Talk Page

[3:07pm] Natalie: Also, I don't understand why strategy.wm.o is the new test.wk.o

[3:07pm] gopher65: oh gods... that's even worse...

[3:07pm] Natalie: No it doesn't?

[3:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: No, it writes to pages, yes?

[3:08pm] tgr: gopher65, maybe you are thinking of Wikiversity's threaded template system?

[3:08pm] Natalie: It uses the revision and page table, as far as I'm aware.

[3:08pm] eekim: sorry, my bad

[3:08pm] eekim: you're right: content is captured in the Thread namespace

[3:08pm] Gebruiker joined the chat room.

[3:09pm] Natalie: Right.

[3:09pm] tgr: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Threaded_discussions_with_NavFrames_with_subst/20070522105803

[3:09pm] eekim: Natalie, are you also a LiquidThreads detractor?

[3:09pm] Gebruiker: Philippe|Wiki ... I wrote about numbers itn hte light of the strategy projects

[3:09pm] eekim: or are you concerned about stability on strategy?

[3:09pm] Gebruiker: I think you will like it

[3:09pm] tgr: that was indeed quite horrible

[3:09pm] Philippe|Wiki: Gebruiker: I was pleased to see that, yes. I look forward to it.

[3:09pm] Natalie: eekim: I just find it curious that strategy.wm.o is using a lot of beta software.

[3:10pm] Gebruiker: http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com

[3:10pm] Gebruiker: I just published it ... you already read it ??

[3:10pm] eekim: yup, we're definitely pushing the edge

[3:10pm] Natalie: I could understand test.wikipedia.org using it or labs or usability.

[3:10pm] • Keegan_ duck taps Natalie's fingers

[3:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: Gebruiker: My mistake, I was thinking about something else entirely.

[3:10pm] Keegan_: *tapes

[3:10pm] • Natalie farts again.

[3:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: I just pulled that up and will read it shortly

[3:10pm] gopher65: http://wiki.werdn.us/test/view/Talk:Main_Page

[3:10pm] gopher65: That's an example of wikithreads, yes?

[3:11pm] Natalie: gopher65: http://liquidthreads.wikimedia.org/ Yes.

[3:11pm] Natalie: Err, that URL is wrong.

[3:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: Gopher - go check out village pump on strategy if you'd like.

[3:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: it's got it

[3:11pm] Natalie: http://liquidthreads.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

[3:11pm] Gebruiker: Philippe|Wiki: I take it that autocomplete did not work well ?

[3:11pm] gopher65: One of my requirements is that I have the ability to go in and be able to manually edit the entire talk page

[3:11pm] gopher65: using wikicode, like I can now

[3:11pm] eekim: hi Gebruiker

[3:12pm] Natalie: gopher65: That's not how any forum works.

[3:12pm] gopher65: Talk pages aren't a forum:P

[3:12pm] Natalie: Yes they are.

[3:12pm] peteforsyth joined the chat room.

[3:12pm] gopher65: ....since when?

[3:12pm] eekim: gopher65: how would you do that without running into the ugly markup issue you cited before?

[3:12pm] Natalie: They've always been a forum for discussion.

[3:12pm] gopher65: They're a message board

[3:12pm] gopher65: Not a forum

[3:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: Gerard, I'm pleased to see that blog post!

[3:12pm] gopher65: Forums are something completely different

[3:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: That makes me very happy, Gerard.

[3:13pm] Natalie: gopher65: What's the distinction in your mind?

[3:13pm] mpeel joined the chat room.

[3:13pm] brassratgirl_: hey, speaking of forums

[3:13pm] Natalie: eekim: My notes on LiquidThreads are here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:LiquidThreads/Notes

[3:13pm] gopher65: eekim: Basically, the WYSIWYG editor would have to convert everything into standard code, like what you'd see on a talk page right now

[3:13pm] brassratgirl_: did anyone see my suggestion to have a to-do list somewhere on the strategy wiki?

[3:13pm] gopher65: so it would convert everything into something liek this:

[3:13pm] gopher65: ==Hia!==

[3:13pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: I saw it. I'm working on it today

[3:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: I should have said so.

[3:14pm] eekim: brassratgirl, yes. i think it's a good idea

[3:14pm] brassratgirl_: Philippe|Wiki - sweet

[3:14pm] brassratgirl_: need help?

[3:14pm] eekim: we had one at one point

[3:14pm] Natalie: Yes, strategy.wiki needs more strategy. More lists.

[3:14pm] gopher65: Saw your neat looking article!

[3:14pm] eekim: Issues

[3:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: I have never, never, never turned down free help

[3:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: eekim, pheobe's suggestion wasn't like our wiki issues page, exactly....

[3:15pm] eekim: we had two issues pages

[3:15pm] eekim: one was wiki-specific, another was more general

[3:15pm] Natalie: Yes. You all have lots of issues.

[3:15pm] eekim: the latter could be repurposed

[3:15pm] Gebruiker: Philippe|Wiki: the changes in those stats were profound ... I can now understand things much better

[3:15pm] Philippe|Wiki: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Village_pump/Archive3#Open_tasks_list_needed

[3:15pm] brassratgirl_: eekim: link?

[3:15pm] Natalie: Archive 3? Lawl.

[3:15pm] Philippe|Wiki: And yeah, eekim I forgot about the other one.

[3:15pm] brassratgirl_: Natalie: I specialize in issues

[3:15pm] Gebruiker: the question is, to what extend will other potentials be considered to be relevant

[3:16pm] • Natalie debates the nature of meta namespaces and whether the village pump belongs in one.

[3:16pm] eekim: gopher65: WYSIWYG is integral in what you're proposing. i think liquidthreads is a good interim experiment.

[3:16pm] cary joined the chat room.

[3:16pm] eekim: WYSIWYG = giant can of worms

[3:16pm] Gebruiker: for instance Hausa is a language with hardly any articles no localisations ... it is one of the 50 biggest languages in the world when you consider native speakers

[3:16pm] eekim: a can worth experimenting with, though

[3:16pm] gopher65: What I want would be substantially easier than what they're implementing right now:P

[3:16pm] Natalie: I don't think everyone in this room understands what a WYSIWYG editor is.

[3:16pm] eekim: you're welcome to prove them wrong, gopher65

[3:17pm] Gebruiker: Swahili is one of the biggest languages when you include second language speakers

[3:17pm] gopher65: <---- not much of a coder

[3:17pm] Gebruiker: AND it is a fast growing project

[3:17pm] Philippe|Wiki: Indeed, Gerard; the use of Erik's stats will be very important to demonstrating that sort of thing

[3:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: would you like to expand on your comment about WYSIWYG?

[3:18pm] brassratgirl_: those new stats are hot, I have to say

[3:18pm] peteforsyth: scratching head...I see people talking to gerard, but don't see him here -- ?

[3:18pm] tgr: user 1 moves a thread to another page

[3:18pm] tgr: user 2 changes rest of the page

[3:18pm] eekim: brassratgirl: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Planning:To-do_list

[3:18pm] tgr: user 3 rolls back user 1

[3:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: pete.... Gebruiker is gerard

[3:18pm] eekim: hi pete

[3:19pm] Gebruiker: As to WYSIWYG The Wave interface does practically all the things you are considering

[3:19pm] peteforsyth: ah. would it be OK to address him as Gebruiker so we can all follow along?

[3:19pm] Gebruiker is now known as GerardM-.

[3:19pm] tgr: now that would be fun for the parser to manage in a free-form LQT implementation

[3:19pm] peteforsyth: Hi eekim

[3:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: peteforsyth: you want consistency? organization? you ask the world, don't you?

[3:19pm] GerardM-: I am behind another system ... did not notice

[3:19pm] peteforsyth: Philippe|Wiki: why yes, I do

[3:20pm] brassratgirl_: whoa! re: liquid threads, where do the "messages on other talk pages" come from? Are those pages on your watch list, or soemthing else?

[3:20pm] peteforsyth: I dare to imagine a world where the sum of human knowledge is freely accessible to everyone...you want less idealism?

[3:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: I think they're watchlisted pages that are using LiquidThreads

[3:20pm] GerardM-: peteforsyth: not in my lifetime ...

[3:20pm] peteforsyth: thx GerardM

[3:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: peteforsyth: it's a good dream. I just don't like typing Gebruiker.

[3:21pm] GerardM-: Gebruiker means User in Dutch

[3:21pm] Philippe|Wiki: Learn something new every day

[3:21pm] peteforsyth: heh. OK, I am satisfied on this...sorry for the distraction...

[3:21pm] gopher65: I'd rather not have plans with the title make-your-own-cold-fusion-warheads or any such thing floating around, freely available to everyone, but that's just me

[3:21pm] tgr: brassratgirl_, you can watchlist both whole pages and separate threads

[3:21pm] brassratgirl_: Philippe|Wiki: makes sense, though it doesn't actually have the page title (just the links)

[3:21pm] brassratgirl_: tgr: thanks

[3:21pm] eekim: Natalie: I agree with many of your LiquidThread issues

[3:22pm] tgr: latter happens automatically when you post to a thread I think

[3:22pm] Keegan_: eekim, don't stock his ego

[3:22pm] brassratgirl_: I had the village pump watchlisted

[3:22pm] Keegan_: But I do as well, there are many issues with LiquidThread

[3:22pm] eekim: *laugh* good point, Keegan

[3:22pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yeah, really, eekim: be careful agreeing with Natalie.

[3:22pm] Keegan_: *stoke

[3:22pm] eekim: y'all forget that Natalie is our head cheerleader

[3:23pm] Keegan_: Yes, Natalie is a bastion of optimism

[3:23pm] Philippe|Wiki: +pep

[3:23pm] Keegan_: Oh yes, and pep

[3:23pm] eekim: i'm excited about being a testbed for _iterative_ improvements to liquidthreads

[3:23pm] eekim: i mentioned to werdna: i hope he's paying close attention to analytics

[3:24pm] GerardM-: Keegan, there are many issues with talk pages as well

[3:24pm] eekim: would very much like to be data-driven in how we prioritize improvements

[3:24pm] GerardM-: imho the issues with LQT are less sever then the issues with talk pages

[3:24pm] Keegan_: Talk pages as a whole?

[3:24pm] GerardM-: yes

[3:24pm] eekim: GerardM: agreed. i think it's an improvement.

[3:24pm] Keegan_: Hm, well

[3:25pm] GerardM-: My point is that perfection should not be the enemy of the good

[3:25pm] Keegan_: Talkpages follow the USENET thread idea

[3:25pm] GerardM-: I positively HATE them

[3:25pm] tgr: and the issues with talk pages are less severe than the issues with mailing lists

[3:25pm] eekim: how is that, keegan?

[3:25pm] brassratgirl_: eekim: thanks for the link. I was thinking more of turning things on the :[:[How_to_participate]] page iinto a to-do list format

[3:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan_: A good number of our users weren't born yet when USENET was in its heydey

[3:25pm] eekim: brassratgirl: sounds like a good plan

[3:25pm] tgr: hopefully LQT can replace those too at some point

[3:26pm] Keegan_: eekim: they are supposed to be indented, threaded conversations, with replies underneath comments

[3:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: Can I take that off my list for today and not think of it again until you poke me to look at it?

[3:26pm] GerardM-: Also USENET is the past .. and we are looking towards the future

[3:26pm] eekim: right, but not enforced

[3:26pm] eekim: LiquidThreads is a lot closer to a traditional threaded system than a Talk page

[3:26pm] Keegan_: Correct, no one makes format laws for talk pages

[3:26pm] eekim: with some funky twists, of course

[3:26pm] Keegan_: They can get confusing, I guess, if you have no idea how they are supposed to work

[3:27pm] eekim: yes, absolutely

[3:27pm] eekim: i think LQT will lower the barrier for new participants

[3:27pm] Keegan_: eekim, right, LQT forces threading

[3:27pm] eekim: but again, i'd like to be data-driven about this

[3:27pm] brassratgirl_: Philippe|Wiki ... you probably have a better idea of what needs doing than I do

[3:27pm] Philippe|Wiki: I was afraid you were gonna say that

[3:27pm] GerardM-: eekim you can not be datadriven when there is none

[3:27pm] eekim: that's the beauty of launching this on strategy

[3:27pm] eekim: we can set up little tests

[3:27pm] brassratgirl_: Philippe|Wiki : spend a few minutes brainstorming at least?

[3:28pm] brassratgirl_: Phillipe|Wiki: want to just use the Strategic_Planning:To-do_list page?

[3:28pm] Philippe|Wiki: Of course, brassratgirl_ it'll stay on the list.

[3:28pm] GerardM-: You can not consider the value of localisation if you do not have an algorithm to compare it by

[3:28pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: I think that makes sense.

[3:28pm] Keegan_: So, to what extent are we trying to adapt the technology?

[3:28pm] eekim: for example, after a week, i'd like to see how many people contributed to LQT who has never edited a Talk page

[3:28pm] Keegan_: I'm all for getting new users, but I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water

[3:28pm] eekim: GerardM: for certain things, you are correct

[3:28pm] GerardM-: Keegan, the baby drowned

[3:28pm] eekim: you always need a point of comparison

[3:29pm] eekim: i agree Keegan

[3:29pm] Keegan_: GerardM: Your opinion, I'm still floating

[3:29pm] eekim: that's something we can be data-driven about as well

[3:29pm] peteforsyth: eekim: my understanding from some earlier discussion was that Strategy wiki was intended to be very accessible to people who may not be very wiki literate

[3:29pm] GerardM-: you are not a baby

[3:29pm] peteforsyth: so is running a test of LQT compatible with that?

[3:29pm] eekim: is LQT driving away existing talk page editors?

[3:29pm] eekim: peteforsyth: exactly

[3:29pm] Natalie: Talk pages are flexible.

[3:29pm] eekim: yes

[3:30pm] eekim: brassratgirl: Our biggest need right now is to get people more engaged with the content on strategy

[3:30pm] GerardM-: they are so flexible that they changed what I said in one thread to say the complete opposite

[3:30pm] eekim: the majority of people have submitted proposals, then disappeared

[3:30pm] GerardM-: and it was not obviois

[3:30pm] Keegan_: The current USENET approach that is the theory (note: not practice) that we use is that it is supposed to be intuitive

[3:30pm] eekim: i'd like to see some percentage of those folks engaged on a deeper level

[3:31pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: In addition, we need people who can start to look at what proposals should be merged, what proposals should be iterated, and what proposals should probably be archived.

[3:31pm] Keegan_: Indent, reply, indent, reply

[3:31pm] tgr: i would look at whether the number of watched talk pages increases with LQT, for example

[3:31pm] Keegan_: Now whether or not this happens is relative to who is participating in the conversation, and how much do they care

[3:31pm] tgr: inlucding pages where only some threads are watched

[3:31pm] eekim: GerardM: indeed. i'd also note that you can do the same with Google Wave.

[3:31pm] GerardM-: tgr when you implenent LQT, and new people come and join, they have to learn to use watch lists as well

[3:31pm] eekim: another need: more analytics

[3:32pm] Natalie: Philippe|Wiki: WYISWYG involves seeing A Big Header where you'd see == A Big Header ==.

[3:32pm] tgr: one problem with the old system is that it is near impossible to follow specific conversations on large pages

[3:32pm] Natalie: I'm not sure what Gopher was talking about.

[3:32pm] Natalie: It's not near impossible.

[3:32pm] Natalie: It's called refresh.

[3:32pm] tgr: the noise from other conversations drowns it out on your watchlist

[3:32pm] brassratgirl_: Philippe|Wiki : iterated?

[3:32pm] Philippe|Wiki: gopher? Were you and Natalie on the same page?

[3:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: uhm.... changed, modified, developed further?

[3:33pm] tgr: and then they get archived, and you get no notification of that at all

[3:33pm] tgr: so, lot of pain

[3:33pm] tgr: LQT solves that neatly

[3:33pm] Natalie: You won't get any notification with LQT either.

[3:33pm] Keegan_: lol@watchlists

[3:33pm] Natalie: Because it has no real concept of archiving.

[3:33pm] eekim: how do you mean?

[3:33pm] tgr: they wont get archived in the first place

[3:33pm] Natalie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lorem_Ipsum_-_WYSIWYG_en_Latex_-_tekst_als_paden.svg

[3:34pm] Natalie: eekim: Threads just drop off the first page eventually.

[3:34pm] Natalie: It's one big stream.

[3:34pm] Keegan_: ...getting peed into

[3:34pm] eekim: threads are addressable, though

[3:34pm] brassratgirl_: philippe: ok. Do you like my very scientific term 'dejargonified' ?

[3:35pm] tgr: if a talk page section is archived, it disappears from your watchlist, because in actuality the text is copied to another page wich you are not watching

[3:35pm] eekim: so you can always link to past threads in the same way that you do with Talk archives

[3:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: Is it in Wiktionary?

[3:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: That's all that fancy-schmancy technical writing.

[3:35pm] tgr: if a thread drops off the page, which btw happens at a user-selectable limit, you still get notifications when others post to it

[3:35pm] Keegan_: I'd look it up there, but i don't want to be blocked

[3:36pm] Natalie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lorem_Ipsum_-_WYSIWYG_en_Latex_-_tekst_als_paden.svg

[3:36pm] eekim: that'll be my next proposal: Wiktionary needs an entry for "dejargonified"

[3:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan_: being blocked is bad.

[3:36pm] Natalie: Yes. Playing Wikimedia strategy one Wiktionary entry at a time.

[3:36pm] Natalie: Sounds like the Wikimedia I know.

[3:36pm] tgr: also, archiving kills links, threads dropping off does not

[3:36pm] cary: why would Keegan be blocked?

[3:37pm] Natalie: Because Wiktionarians are insular assholes.

[3:37pm] Keegan_: For looking at Wiktionary

[3:37pm] Philippe|Wiki: cary: General principle, usually.

[3:37pm] Natalie: At least English Wiktionarians.

[3:37pm] Keegan_: Okay, well, Natalie said it better but less politely

[3:37pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: Let's do our best to not, you know, disparage whole groups, please?

[3:37pm] Natalie: Have you ever edited en.wikt?

[3:37pm] Keegan_: Meh, he'll disparage himself too

[3:37pm] Keegan_: Back to the point

[3:38pm] Natalie: tgr: I see you're a convert to the Church of LQT.

[3:38pm] Keegan_: What was the point?

[3:38pm] Natalie: That Wiktionary doesn't have an entry for "dejargonified."

[3:38pm] eekim: Natalie, didn't get your point behind the LaTeX screenshot. or was that meant for someone else?

[3:38pm] Natalie: And Wikimedia's 5-year plan is to add one.

[3:38pm] Natalie: eekim: Mostly meant for Philippe and Gopher.

[3:38pm] eekim: got it

[3:38pm] Natalie: To illustrate what WYSIWYG.

[3:38pm] Natalie: +is

[3:38pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: I'm fairly certain that was humor, but I can see how it's a subtle concept.

[3:39pm] Natalie: Humor? In my strategy channel?

[3:39pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yeah, I got the screenshot, Natalie. But I haven't heard from gopher if that matches his/her/their expression of WYSIWYG

[3:39pm] eekim: tgr: i agree. i think there was a lot of cleverness in LQT's design.

[3:39pm] Natalie: Heh, cleverness is an odd term for it. It's certainly unique in a lot of respects.

[3:40pm] eekim: how about "thoughtfulness"?

[3:40pm] Keegan_: Quit with the semantics already

[3:40pm] tgr: eekim, there are good ideas in it, but this part is just basic forum concepts

[3:40pm] Keegan_: It's very unique

[3:40pm] eekim: tgr: what i mean is how forum and wiki concepts are integrated

[3:40pm] Natalie: Eep. Don't say forum. We'll just end up in the conversation from an hour ago again.

[3:40pm] eekim: from a generic high-level standpoint, it's not anything particularly new

[3:40pm] tgr: which shows how much our discussion system sucks, if even average forum software is so much superior in usability

[3:41pm] peteforsyth left the chat room.

[3:41pm] eekim: it's amazing the kinds of discussions that are possible on a blank sheet of paper. which is essentially how Talk works.

[3:42pm] tgr: eekim, sure, but making a discussion system with linkable, followable threads with notification is not a big deal

[3:42pm] tgr: the big deal is that we didn't do it for eight years

[3:42pm] eekim: that's fair

[3:43pm] Natalie: Not a big deal?

[3:43pm] eekim: so the higher-level strategic question is, how can we get better at improvement?

[3:43pm] Natalie: It's most certainly a big deal, both technically and socially.

[3:43pm] tgr: Natalie, all but the most crappy forum software can do that

[3:43pm] Natalie: Can do what? Act as a forum?

[3:44pm] Natalie: How many pieces of forum software act as a wiki?

[3:44pm] Natalie: Apples and oranges.

[3:44pm] Philippe|Wiki: well, tgr, my vacuum can clean a house, but that doesn't make it useful for my computer? It's all in how things interact with each other.... forum software can do stuff, but if it doesn't link to a wiki....

[3:44pm] tgr: actually there is nothing hard in using wikicode inside comments

[3:45pm] eekim: it's the level of integration that's interesting. that's what i think is clever.

[3:45pm] eekim: it's not just about wikilinks

[3:45pm] tgr: drupal could do that for three years or so

[3:45pm] eekim: addressable threads. every post is a wiki page. watchlist integration. threads moving with content.

[3:46pm] eekim: you can't just plug in a forum naively and get the same functionality

[3:46pm] eekim: maybe it's not a big deal for all forms of wiki interaction. not all wikis need separate Talk/content namespaces imho. but wikimedia wikis do.

[3:47pm] tgr: there are great things in LQT, and I guess acceptable perfomance must have required a lot of effort too, with WP's level of traffic

[3:47pm] eekim: absolutely. still not sure that LQT has accomplished that.

[3:47pm] lyzzy: I need some input on what information of local processes is interesting for the wikimedia strategy process

[3:47pm] tgr: I'm just saying it's not surprising we can have real threads, its not hard at all

[3:47pm] Natalie: LQT still needs a lot of work.

[3:47pm] Natalie: It's headed in the right direction (mostly).

[3:47pm] lyzzy: wiimedia germay is working on an own strategy process

[3:48pm] Natalie: But still needs a lot of work.

[3:48pm] eekim: lyzzy: for one, just the fact that there is local activity.

[3:48pm] tgr: what's surprising is we could have for years and didn't

[3:48pm] lyzzy: hehe:)

[3:48pm] brassratgirl_: Philippe|Wiki: edit conflict! I added verbs

[3:48pm] eekim: i think a page with a high-level summary of your activity and a pointer to the appropriate wiki page is a good starting point

[3:48pm] brassratgirl_: Philippe|Wiki: I must get back to work, but there's a start

[3:48pm] tgr: the sort of mistake strategic planning hopefully helps us avoid in the future

[3:48pm] lyzzy: we didn't translate our meta-pages yet and we can't do it at all

[3:48pm] eekim: that's okay

[3:48pm] lyzzy: what is more important: the process or the outcome

[3:49pm] lyzzy: just to know wht to start with

[3:49pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: Thanks!

[3:49pm] Philippe|Wiki: brassratgirl_: and verbs are overrated.

[3:49pm] eekim: have you completed your process?

[3:49pm] lyzzy: eekim: no

[3:49pm] lyzzy: not yet. we are publishing strategic core goals for each ressort

[3:49pm] eekim: then i think a high-level summary and eventually a pointer to the outcome

[3:49pm] lyzzy: and begin working on "task forces"

[3:50pm] eekim: that's excellent

[3:50pm] eekim: we might be able to point some translators your way as well

[3:50pm] eekim: would benefit the entire community to get a peek at what you all are doing

[3:51pm] tgr: eekim, Philippe|Wiki: now that volunteer applications will be closed, does that mean new proposals wont be accepted either, or are the two completely unrelated?

[3:51pm] eekim: unrelated

[3:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: Volunteer applications aren't closed yet but soon.... and, yeah, unrelated.

[3:51pm] eekim: we have no plans to shut down the proposal process

[3:51pm] lyzzy: eekim: ok. I take that and we will start to spread some information in english soon

[3:52pm] cary: Hey, are there any people who volunteered who would be better off for Customer Service than on a task force?

[3:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: lyzzy: I'm fascinated to see how things go there.

[3:52pm] eekim: as i was saying to brassratgirl, though, i'd really like to encourage folks to explore/work with the content on the existing wiki rather than only use it to drop "new" ideas

[3:52pm] cary: Because I'd love to have names

[3:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: cary, let's talk later about how to get you the best use of this database.

[3:52pm] cary: NOIW

[3:52pm] eekim: cary, let me think about this.

[3:52pm] cary: NOW

[3:52pm] cary: I want what I want, and I want it now

[3:52pm] cary:

[3:53pm] • Philippe|Wiki feels trigger finger twitch

[3:53pm] • eekim sic'ing Philippe on cary

[3:53pm] Philippe|Wiki: clear to see, though, why Cary wants folks with service ability; his own certainly sucks. yelling "NOW" all over the channel.....

[3:53pm] cary: oh, you should have heard my recent phone call

[3:54pm] Keegan_: One of these days I will convince cary to hire me

[3:54pm] Keegan_: One of these days

[3:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan_: you don't want any part of Cary's madness.

[3:54pm] cary: He is already a part

[3:54pm] Keegan_: This is true

[3:54pm] cary: speaking of which

[3:55pm] • cary pm's Keegan_

[3:55pm] lyzzy: cary: absolutely offtopic - but did you mention the queue-volume of the german otrs-queues?

[3:55pm] lyzzy: we are really great!

[3:56pm] brassratgirl_: cary: well, I'm looking at a proposal to rehire larry sanger...

[3:56pm] Natalie: Oh, damn.

[3:56pm] lyzzy: ok. let's go on strategy stuff

[3:56pm] Natalie: I had a good comment to make there, but can't.

[3:56pm] Natalie: Bah.

[3:56pm] brassratgirl_: does anyone have any feedback for this? http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Call_for_proposals#new_category

[3:56pm] gopher65: Ok, this is a visual representation of what I'd like to see in a WYSIWYG editor:

[3:56pm] gopher65: http://gopher65.com/images/wikinews/wikieditor.html

[3:56pm] cary: brassratgirl_, he can be my assistant

[3:56pm] • Natalie shakes his fist at Philippe|Wiki.

[3:56pm] gopher65: Since people had trouble understanding what I wanted:P

[3:56pm] Church_of_emacs left the chat room. ("Leaving")

[3:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: I apprecaite your discretion

[3:56pm] cary: lyzzy, yes, the germans are awesomely efficient

[3:57pm] lyzzy: sometimes

[3:59pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: Did you see gopher's rendition?

[4:00pm] Natalie: I did. I don't understand how you'd type that into a edit window.

[4:00pm] Natalie: Or why you'd want to...

[4:00pm] eekim: gopher65: you're mixing up a lot of concepts there

[4:00pm] Natalie: This. ^

[4:00pm] gopher65: What concepts?

[4:00pm] eekim: you list three things

[4:00pm] eekim: a WYSIWYG editor

[4:01pm] gopher65: WYSIWYG refers only to the end product, not to the pseudo-code that would be on the talk page

[4:01pm] eekim: a rendered page

[4:01pm] eekim: no

[4:01pm] eekim: you're confusing the editing with the rendering

[4:01pm] eekim: you have two forms of editing: WYSIWYG and syntax-highlighted markup

[4:01pm] Natalie: What You See Is What You Get. It's about what the editing window looks like.

[4:02pm] gopher65: And the *editing* window would be WYSIWYG

[4:02pm] tgr: he is mixing up dreams with reality, mostly

[4:02pm] eekim: that's right. that's the top box

[4:02pm] gopher65: The *talk page edit feature* would be seeing the syntex

[4:02pm] tgr: sure everyone would like a WYSIWYG editor which interfaces perfectly with wikitextú incompatible encoding

[4:02pm] gopher65: Which liquid threads doesn't seem to do, afaik

[4:02pm] eekim: why?

[4:02pm] eekim: okay, let's take a step back for a moment

[4:02pm] Dedalus_: gopher65 if you like richt text editing an encyclopedia article, try this one http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AdMU5X0CLeDcZHNmczdnNV8xOGZ0ZG40bmY4&hl=en and give me some feedback

[4:03pm] tgr: but that is not possible, for a number of reasons

[4:03pm] GerardM-_ joined the chat room.

[4:03pm] eekim: LQT is not simply a fancy editor on top of a Talk page

[4:03pm] gopher65: ...which is what I want:P

[4:03pm] gopher65: I don't want a forum system on the talk pages

[4:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: OK, but that's not what LQT is trying to be.

[4:03pm] eekim: okay, so that's fair, but that's completely different

[4:04pm] eekim: also, you have two different editing systems

[4:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: So it's not really fair to blame LQT for not being what it's not trying to be.

[4:04pm] eekim: one is WYSIWYG, one is not

[4:04pm] gopher65: I guess that's true Philippe

[4:04pm] eekim: doesn't make sense to have both (with one small caveat)

[4:04pm] eekim: tools like WIKIWYG have an expert mode that lets you see the syntax if you'd like

[4:05pm] eekim: but for the sake of usability, an Edit button should always open up one mode of editing

[4:06pm] cary: LQT sounds like a version of gay

[4:06pm] • eekim laughs

[4:06pm] • cary goes to the LQT community center

[4:07pm] eekim: don't tell Rush that Wikimedia is working on LQT

[4:07pm] eekim: he might start a campaign

[4:07pm] Dedalus_: start editing *without* clicking an edit button - right away in WYSIWYG mode: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AdMU5X0CLeDcZHNmczdnNV8xOGZ0ZG40bmY4&hl=en

[4:08pm] eekim: Dedalus: WIKIWYG originally had a "bug" that allowed you to double click on a page to edit. Socialtext later decided it was a feature.

[4:08pm] lyzzy left the chat room.

[4:08pm] eekim: removing an edit button entirely is an interesting thought experiment

[4:09pm] eekim: certainly removes another barrier

[4:09pm] eekim: in some ways, this is the Google Wave vision

[4:09pm] GerardM- left the chat room. ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 :[Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]")

[4:09pm] eekim: okay folks, need to run

[4:10pm] eekim: thanks for the good discussion everybody

[4:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: yeah, me too... eekim makes me work.

[4:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'll be archiving this chat shortly.

[4:10pm] eekim: folks should look at: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Where_should_Wikimedia_go%3F

[4:10pm] eekim: and edit away