IRC office hours/2009-11-24

[10:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: ******** BEGIN LOGGING *****

[10:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: So, Eekim is out sick today, and won't join us

[10:01pm] Amgine: so, anyway... TF/Offline seems to have immediately run aground on the shoals of TF/Technology.

[10:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'm pleased to be back in the country after my marathon world tour.

[10:01pm] Bodnotbod: Oh dear. < sends grapes to bedside >

[10:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: So i may not be up to date on all the issues, but I'll give it the old school try

[10:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: Amgine, shoals?

[10:02pm] Amgine: stuff under water, less deep than the boat.

[10:02pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yes, I'm clear on the nautical reference; wondered what the practical implication was. To us, not the boat.

[10:02pm] Amgine: Basically: our content dumps are too much work use.

[10:02pm] Amgine: Which doesn't quite seem the kind of initial finding for the Offline group.

[10:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: i'm sorry, the dumps are what?

[10:03pm] Mike_lifeguard: database dumps (in XML)

[10:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: no, i get that

[10:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: i'm asking Amgine what he meant.... too much work use?

[10:04pm] Amgine: If we want to present our content in offline formats, we need to make that content easier for downstream re-users to manipulate.

[10:04pm] Mike_lifeguard: ah, sorry

[10:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: no worries, Mike, thanks

[10:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: too much work *to* use.

[10:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: okay

[10:05pm] Amgine: So, instead of wiki syntax, semantic xml tags.

[10:05pm] Amgine: sorry, tired, long day.

[10:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: These are the logs that Tomasz runs?

[10:05pm] Amgine: The OpenZim came up several times. They, too, would want tags, and they use html output.

[10:06pm] Philippe|Wiki: Without trying to brainstorm stuff that's WAY over my head, is it not possible to do some scripts to process the logs and post them?

[10:06pm] Amgine: post-processing: yes.

[10:06pm] Philippe|Wiki: hocus pocus, problem solved! But i have a feeling it's not that simple.

[10:06pm] Amgine: However, some of the desired tags might be better implemented at the community level.

[10:07pm] Amgine: And this is only Wikipedia: Wikibooks is probably easy; Wiktionary not so.

[10:07pm] Amgine: heh. Magic never works without a lot of sweat, no.

[10:07pm] Philippe|Wiki: OK, well this is about strategy right? at least in theory? So why not make that a recommendation?

[10:07pm] Philippe|Wiki: That the logs be reformatted to something that's usable

[10:07pm] Amgine: *My* point is: I don't think this is what the TF was about, is it?

[10:07pm] Mike_lifeguard: Why is Wikibooks easy?

[10:08pm] Amgine: Because most publishing already uses standardized xml.

[10:08pm] Amgine: And Wikibooks tries to follow standard writing patterns.

[10:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: Amgine, the task forces were left with a great deal of latitude. As long as the mandate questions are explored, we don't care if you then use it redesign the Bay Bridge

[10:08pm] Amgine: (Like Portland Pattern Repository, writing has patterns as well)

[10:09pm] Amgine: kk Philippe|Wiki.

[10:09pm] Philippe|Wiki: The idea, of course, being that a group of smart dedicated people who knew their stuff would think of things that we didn't

[10:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: you all met this morning, right?

[10:10pm] Amgine: do something + magic = PROFIT!

[10:10pm] Amgine: For 6 hours this morning, yes.

[10:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: Six... HOURS/

[10:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'm glad I skipped that one.

[10:10pm] Bodnotbod: Six hours!

[10:10pm] Amgine: It just kept going on... I went to the dentist.

[10:10pm] Bodnotbod: lol

[10:10pm] Amgine: I wish that was a joke.

[10:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: suddenly everyone else is pleased with their task force assignments

[10:10pm] Amgine: I came back they were still there....

[10:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: Can you give us the Readers Digest condensed version?

[10:11pm] Keegan joined the chat room.

[10:11pm] • Philippe|Wiki waves at Keegan

[10:11pm] Keegan: Rawr

[10:11pm] • Keegan glares at Philippe

[10:11pm] Amgine: Two things: dumps are hard. We don't want to do this, we want to get other people to do it.

[10:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: WHAT? I TOLD HIM TO CALL YOU!

[10:12pm] Keegan: either one of you

[10:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: in my own defense, i've been international for the last several weeks

[10:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: and i thought you wanted to talk to him

[10:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: Amgine, so we need flying monkeys to do dumps for us?

[10:13pm] Amgine: No, we can do the dumps. We can't go knocking on school doors in outer mongolia.

[10:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: noooooo. no more airplanes!

[10:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: Interesting, Durova and I discussed much this same issue with a parallel topic lsat ngiht

[10:14pm] Amgine: <nods> So what we need to do is make things easy, simple for others to re-use our content.

[10:15pm] Philippe|Wiki: OK, so that sounds like a finding

[10:15pm] Philippe|Wiki: i suspect some recommendations for how to fix it would be apprecaited

[10:16pm] Amgine: Frustrating finding, as soon as you realize it also means convincing all languages of a project to try to look the same...

[10:16pm] Keegan: Hrm, well, that's an interesting thought

[10:16pm] Keegan: I figure 80

[10:16pm] Keegan: % doesn't bother to try

[10:16pm] Keegan: They just copy and paste

[10:16pm] Keegan: So is this for education/professional use?

[10:16pm] Amgine: Yes.

[10:17pm] Amgine: For example: most likely your IRC client is using a dictionary to spell check as you type. Wiktionary could provide that dictionary, if the data were prepared in the right way.

[10:17pm] Keegan: Jimbo apparently mentioned an Africa initiative, we've received emails

[10:17pm] Keegan: Yes, I just misspelled apparently

[10:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yes, I can tell you that Google is doing a focus on Africa that will include teaching local folks to use their translator toolkit and upload to wikipedia

[10:18pm] Keegan: Hrm

[10:18pm] Amgine: <nods> Wikibooks produces OER, I think in Swahili even (Google's language focus)

[10:18pm] Keegan: I've been wondering what to do with the emails...

[10:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan, that's a grand question.

[10:19pm] Amgine: <points @ anyone but me>

[10:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: not it

[10:19pm] Keegan: Let me see if I can find an example real quick

[10:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: Bodnotbod, what's up with community health?

[10:20pm] Keegan: Meh, someone did something with it

[10:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: evidently, Bodnotbod dropped back off to sleep

[10:20pm] Bodnotbod: Philippe, yes going quite well. JCravens has joined in and written a proposal on rewarding editors which is much better than mine. So very happy with that.

[10:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: +1 for collaboration

[10:20pm] Keegan: But I read an email about six hours ago that was basically "I hear that Wikipedia wants to get involved in Africa. I am a professor in Africa, how can I help?"

[10:21pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan, i'm taking that as a note to pass on once i figure out who our africa person is

[10:21pm] Philippe|Wiki: it's very clearly not me

[10:22pm] Bodnotbod: Philippe, I still have slight concern that we could use more input. Sjc is struggling for various reasons. Haap seems to be AWOL. However those that are getting busy are all doing good stuff. And it looks like...

[10:22pm] Bodnotbod: ...we on the TF are finding much more to agree on than to argue about, which is quite handy given we are few.

[10:23pm] Keegan: Philippe: I'm taking it this is kind of a free for all?

[10:23pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan, very unstructured. Eekim is ill, so I'm just sort of asking how task forces are going

[10:23pm] Philippe|Wiki: but i'm open to whatever. as long as it's well behaved. /me peers at Natalie.

[10:23pm] Keegan: This is why y'all need to talk to me

[10:23pm] Keegan: Ha

[10:24pm] Amgine: Keegan: You're on comcom?

[10:24pm] Keegan: BLP Task Force is...interesting

[10:24pm] Keegan: No

[10:24pm] Amgine: <nods>

[10:24pm] Philippe|Wiki: This time is meant to connect people to each other; to be non structured. Think of it as the water cooler at work.

[10:24pm] Philippe|Wiki: BLP task force... you mean the one Cary put togehter? not one of our task forces?

[10:24pm] Keegan: I'm doing a couple of things for cary

[10:24pm] Keegan: Right

[10:25pm] Keegan: I've got some great feedback on what not to do

[10:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: OK. I can see that directly affecting our Wikipedia Quality and Content task forces.

[10:25pm] Amgine: (who is lurking sneakily in another channel)

[10:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: I had a coworker once who pretended to "forget" meetings and got cuaght at a restaurant once. SO we took the meeting to him. Never lurked again.

[10:26pm] Keegan: Meta needs organized, which is ironic considering it is the interwiki wiki

[10:26pm] Amgine: Mike_Lifeguard: have you been suborned into one of these?

[10:26pm] Amgine: Meta has *always* needed organizing.

[10:28pm] Mike_lifeguard: one of what?

[10:29pm] Philippe|Wiki: Task forces, I believe he meant

[10:29pm] JC left the chat room. (Connection timed out)

[10:29pm] Amgine: Yep.

[10:30pm] Amgine: <how many of us are catching up with on-wiki stuff?>

[10:30pm] • Philippe|Wiki is

[10:30pm] Bodnotbod: Amgine, right now? Or in general?

[10:31pm] • LauraHale is catching up with wiki stuff.

[10:31pm] • Bodnotbod has a question raised by Jcravens on her favorites page for Philippe. Is now a good time to ask?

[10:31pm] Amgine: right now.

[10:31pm] Amgine: Which is why conversation is lagging.

[10:31pm] Amgine: Someone should reopen the topic of WikiPorn as a strategy.

[10:31pm] Philippe|Wiki: Anyone else want to report on a task force? or their weather?

[10:32pm] LauraHale: Strategy wiki needs clear timelines for idea implementation ideas.

[10:32pm] Philippe|Wiki: How would you think that would work, LauraHale?

[10:32pm] LauraHale: Seeing see things sit for years with out any clear resolution or sense of what should happen is annoying. And discouraging.

[10:32pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yeah, that would be bad.

[10:33pm] LauraHale: A logical steps of the procedures that happen, the time frame that steps x, y, z should happen.

[10:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: I think that'll sort of be the output of the strategic plan.

[10:33pm] LauraHale: Using Fan History as an example, I was told by some one that to get any movement on it could take btween 3 to 18 months.

[10:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: But maybe you mean something else?

[10:33pm] Keegan: LauraHale: What I've encountered as an obstacle is that this is unpaid, it takes passion to get it done

[10:33pm] Amgine: :[:[w:SMART criteria]]

[10:34pm] Keegan: Now, said passion may be contrary to the purpose of the TF

[10:34pm] LauraHale: Keegan: while it might take time, asking unpaid labor that wants to donate their labor to wait 3 to 16 months?

[10:34pm] LauraHale: that is going to discourage people.

[10:34pm] Keegan: That's how long it takes IRL

[10:34pm] LauraHale: Especially when they have no realistic timeframe.

[10:34pm] Keegan: I'm not justifying it, I'm just saying

[10:35pm] LauraHale: No, I don't think so.

[10:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: We're not really good at creating projects.

[10:35pm] LauraHale: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Fan_History_joining_the_WMF_family

[10:35pm] LauraHale: If I went back to Wikia, I could probably hand over the domains and be hosted by them in a month. At the latest.

[10:35pm] Amgine: And there are still bad feelings at the way previous projects were created. I know of some bad feelings still for Wikinews/Commons.

[10:35pm] LauraHale: (Which isn't going to happen. Period.)

[10:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yeah, right now, Meta's the best place for that. Email me and I'll help you get that moved over there.

[10:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: Strategy doesn't have the "yes/no" switch

[10:36pm] LauraHale: Just the lack of timeframe or even procedure for how to excute pretty much makes stuff like that a no go.

[10:36pm] LauraHale: Not even a yes/no switch.

[10:36pm] JC joined the chat room.

[10:36pm] LauraHale: The feedback on the foundation mailing list was good.

[10:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: LauraHale: The idea of proposals was to serve as a staging area for the task forces to get started.

[10:37pm] Philippe|Wiki: And to create a process whereby people COULD propose their ideas in an environment devoted to that. The implimentation piece is still a little hinky

[10:37pm] Keegan: BTW, LauraHale, I don't think we've met. Hello

[10:37pm] LauraHale: Philippe|Wiki: I'm mostly describing my own experience here, based on people I talked to. This may be extremely case specific.

[10:37pm] LauraHale: Hello Keegan.

[10:37pm] Philippe|Wiki: Sure, LauraHale, and I appreciate yours

[10:37pm] Keegan: I'm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

[10:37pm] Keegan: What is your project?

[10:38pm] LauraHale: Philippe|Wiki: Some of my issues may have been encouraged by others as a way of giving WMF a case study.

[10:38pm] LauraHale: Er. My project is http://www.fanhistory.com

[10:39pm] Keegan: ah

[10:39pm] LauraHale: It isn't on WMF.

[10:39pm] Philippe|Wiki: LauraHale: Auditioning for the role of guinea pig

[10:39pm] LauraHale: It might be but unlikely, especially given the timeline issues.

[10:40pm] Keegan: Hm, it's meta for fancruft!

[10:40pm] Keegan:

[10:40pm] LauraHale: Philippe|Wiki: Everyone needs one? And I put my head down, stuck my hand up and whispered "Okay me."

[10:40pm] Amgine: <chuckles> A bit more serious than that Keegan...

[10:40pm] Philippe|Wiki: wait, you VOLUNTEERED for something?! Now you've done it

[10:40pm] Keegan:

[10:41pm] LauraHale: I make the mistake of volunteering. That's how I ended up planning RCC 2009. And I think running RecentChangesCamp 2010.

[10:41pm] Philippe|Wiki: Thank you for your service

[10:41pm] Amgine: Officially I have *not* volunteered for the TF... I can always walk away.

[10:41pm] • Keegan is always caught in volunteering, but he's from Tennessee

[10:41pm] Amgine: <lies through the teeth a bit>

[10:41pm] LauraHale: But as some one who would like to consider moving their project to WMF because I think WMF might be a good fit, the 3 month to 18 month time frame for discussion doesn't really function well.

[10:41pm] Philippe|Wiki: ya'll make volunteering less of a "thing" and more of a "state" of being there, Keegan

[10:42pm] Keegan: Fair point

[10:42pm] Keegan: LauraHale: I can see the purpose

[10:42pm] Keegan: Actually, that would serve well for...well, fancruft

[10:42pm] LauraHale: If there is say a wiki that is, for example, more worthy of moving to WMF than Fan History... and it has say finacial issues, and they refuse Wikia for reasons similar to mine?

[10:42pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yeah, LauraHale I think that's one of the things that should be discussed some. I hope the expanding content task force will do so.

[10:42pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'll ping them about it

[10:43pm] LauraHale: Then WMF has to make a decision. Or the community has to make a decision. Asking for a year to discuss it doesn't work.

[10:43pm] Keegan: SIB.WIKI FOREVER

[10:43pm] • Keegan had to

[10:43pm] LauraHale: Ward's Wiki Forever.

[10:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: no, keegan, you didn't

[10:44pm] LauraHale: Keegan: Fan History might actually serve for showing how to do original research really well.

[10:44pm] Keegan: Well

[10:44pm] LauraHale: Lots and lots of original research. And reporting that is less... restrictive in how it operates than wikiNews.

[10:44pm] Keegan: That would be interesting

[10:45pm] • Bodnotbod doesn't really see how Fan History ties in with the WMF's charitable mission.

[10:45pm] LauraHale: Interesting as a meta issue.

[10:45pm] Philippe|Wiki: Bodnotbod: The sum of all human knowledge

[10:45pm] Keegan: Since Wikipedia started as an incubator for Nupedia, does Wikipedia need one?

[10:45pm] LauraHale: The point is to document the history of fan communities. Which is useful in a variety of ways. There isn't necessarily much historical research done in these areas.

[10:46pm] LauraHale: But it isn't for everyone and may not be a good fit for WMF. Or I could find a better fit for Fan History than WMF. Or WMF may decide they want us but their best fit may not end up being what we can live with.

[10:47pm] Amgine: <nods> decentralized authority sucks, but slightly less than autocracy.

[10:47pm] LauraHale: Those sort of issues are probably main ones for why no one has really said OH HELLO WMF! TAKE US OVER!

[10:48pm] LauraHale: Decentralized authority doesn't really work in some cases. Idealistic but just not always functional.

[10:48pm] Philippe|Wiki: They do make for an interesting organizational structure

[10:48pm] Amgine: Is that the Minnesota use of 'interesting'?

[10:48pm] Keegan: The biggest issue to me, I think, is that most fandom interest may not understand the GFDL/CC-BY-SA, and comprehension that you are legally liable for your edits

[10:49pm] Amgine: As in "The anchovie and kiwi salad was interesting."

[10:49pm] Philippe|Wiki: Amgine, nope. The sarcasm meter didn't peg.

[10:49pm] Amgine: Darn...

[10:49pm] JC left the chat room. (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))

[10:50pm] Philippe|Wiki: But then, i"M a politician

[10:50pm] LauraHale: Keegan: Fan communities are pretty diverse. General summaries are impossible. My general conclusion: Fans interepret copyright in a way that makes them happy. (Or intentionally angry.)

[10:50pm] Amgine: ooo, Wikipedians!

[10:50pm] LauraHale:

[10:50pm] LauraHale: Sure.

[10:51pm] Amgine: I mean, being honest, most wikipedians are probably in the same boat vis-à-vis copyright and governance. I don't think that's an issue.

[10:51pm] Keegan: Insert Wikimedia with Wikipedia, it's fundamentally a different concept but most don't get that

[10:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: I've been writing this up into a little briefinng to give expanding content task force

[10:51pm] LauraHale: Our copyright stuff can probably be readily fixable if we seriously wanted to move.

[10:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: Laura, how many articles?

[10:52pm] Amgine: <nods> Wikinews moved from PD to CC-by with a couple thousand articles.

[10:52pm] FloNight: Philippe, any specific feed back for the Community health taskforce?

[10:52pm] LauraHale: Er. We have 828,000 articles total. Of those, about 28,000 probably human created.

[10:52pm] LauraHale: About probably 50,000 edited by humans.

[10:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: the others are.... hamster?

[10:52pm] LauraHale: Bot created stubs?

[10:52pm] • Keegan wonders how many monsters are creating...

[10:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: I figured, but thought hamster would be cooler.

[10:53pm] LauraHale: We love AboutUs and borrow a lot of our principles from them.

[10:53pm] Keegan: Philippe stole my joke

[10:53pm] Philippe|Wiki: can't blame a boy for tryin.

[10:53pm] LauraHale: Added to that, Ray King advised us to blow out our content.

[10:53pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan: my reflexes are sharper than usual today; no vodka.

[10:53pm] • Philippe|Wiki has a crush on AboutUs

[10:53pm] LauraHale: My reflexes do not exist. Stress.

[10:53pm] Bodnotbod is now known as Bodnotbod_away.

[10:53pm] LauraHale: I love AboutUs.

[10:54pm] Amgine: FloNight: Hi!

[10:54pm] Amgine: 7 minutes, Philippe|Wiki

[10:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: Amgine: indeed.

[10:54pm] LauraHale: I think they do interesting things. If Ray would take us over as a side project not really intended to profit but sort of as a greater good thing and be willing to lose some money and pay me? I would be ll ZOMG! RAY I LOVE YOU!

[10:54pm] FloNight: hi :-0

[10:54pm] Bodnotbod_away is now known as Bodnotbod.

[10:54pm] LauraHale: Hello FloNight

[10:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: hi FloNight

[10:54pm] Amgine: With Health...

[10:55pm] Philippe|Wiki: Flo, you wanna quickie give us some insight on your group? Bodnotbod gave an overview

[10:55pm] FloNight: Going well.

[10:55pm] Philippe|Wiki: not that quick.

[10:55pm] FloNight: Loads to read.

[10:56pm] Keegan: What's Flo's group?

[10:56pm] FloNight: We are focusing on Editor rewards and awards now

[10:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: Flo's got Community Health

[10:56pm] FloNight: Community health

[10:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: She's the schoolnurse

[10:56pm] • Keegan laughs

[10:56pm] Keegan: Community Health. Have fun with that

[10:56pm] FloNight: In the past I was a Community health nurse

[10:57pm] Philippe|Wiki: LOL

[10:57pm] Philippe|Wiki: perfect

[10:57pm] Amgine: <partner is a Public Health Nurse researcher>

[10:57pm] • Philippe|Wiki was a nursing student for half a minute

[10:57pm] Amgine: I bet you wore the costume all night.

[10:58pm] Philippe|Wiki: They wouldn't give me one. Something about insurance.

[10:58pm] Bodnotbod: Half a minute? So enough time in which to kill them, but not to save them

[10:58pm] Amgine: <laughs>

[10:58pm] FloNight: CH task force needs to do more work on the policy aspect of our work.

[10:58pm] FloNight: I've not got a handle on where to go with it yet.

[10:58pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yeah, that's a hard bit.

[10:58pm] Philippe|Wiki: SOOO much to consider

[10:59pm] Amgine: be nice or I send guido out to cap ur knees...

[10:59pm] Bodnotbod: We don't have any insight into policies of projects other than en:wp as far as I'm aware.

[10:59pm] Philippe|Wiki: I admire your proposed policy and wish to subscribe to your newsletter

[10:59pm] LauraHale: Wikipedia is overwhelmin that way.

[10:59pm] FloNight: I'm looking for papers on organizational structire of on line communities

[11:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: FloNight: I have a copy of the old Terms of Service for AOL if that's helpful... when it was a community

[11:00pm] FloNight: yes

[11:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'll digitize it and send it up then

[11:00pm] LauraHale: FloNight: I don't have papers but if you ever need help, let me know. I spend a lot of time studying online commuities and how they are organized.

[11:01pm] FloNight: Bodnotbod: I'm active on several English speaking wikis.

[11:01pm] LauraHale: Which wikis?

[11:01pm] • LauraHale is on AboutUs, Fan History, wikiHow and sporadically elsewhere.

[11:01pm] Bodnotbod: Ah, OK Flo, that's great.

[11:02pm] FloNight: Commons, Wikisource, Wikiquote

[11:03pm] LauraHale: Cool.

[11:03pm] Mike_lifeguard is now known as Mike||gone.

[11:03pm] Amgine: <dings bell>

[11:03pm] FloNight: But we need better information about the other languages

[11:03pm] Bodnotbod: Definitely.

[11:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: Indeed... folks, I have to go make an appearance at a birthday party.

[11:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'll post this log first tho

[11:03pm] Philippe|Wiki: Thanks for the updates!!

[11:03pm] FloNight: nitie nite

[11:04pm] Bodnotbod: Thanks Philippe.

[11:04pm] LauraHale: Night!

[11:04pm] Amgine: nite nite!

[11:04pm] Philippe|Wiki: nite

[11:04pm] Bodnotbod: G'night everyone.

[11:04pm] LauraHale left the chat room.

[11:04pm] You left the chat by being disconnected from the server.