IRC office hours/2009-12-22

eekim: hey philippe

[9:58pm] Philippe|Wiki: hey eekim

[9:59pm] eekim: it's been forever

[9:59pm] Philippe|Wiki: yeah, like, nearly 3 hours?

[9:59pm] eekim: way too long

[9:59pm] Philippe|Wiki: hey, anyone know how to read a memo on IRC? I got a notification that I have one.

[10:00pm] eekim: no idea

[10:00pm] Philippe|Wiki: oh, found it.

[10:01pm] eekim: small crowd tonight

[10:01pm] Philippe|Wiki: *** LOG STARTING ***

[10:01pm] eekim: howdy everyone

[10:01pm] eekim: new Question of the week this week

[10:01pm] eekim: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Question_of_the_week

[10:02pm] eekim: this is one of the more interesting slides, because it shows what wikimedia's growth curve might look like if we do _nothing_ (all other things being equal, of course)

[10:04pm] LauraHale left the chat room.

[10:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'm actually a little confused with that graphic.

[10:05pm] Philippe|Wiki: What's the 1.2, 1.5, 0.9 refer to?

[10:05pm] eekim: billion people

[10:06pm] fajro: There are statistics of the incubator wiki?

[10:06pm] Philippe|Wiki: so why is 0.6 way up by the 5B number?

[10:06pm] eekim: fajro, what's the incubator wiki?

[10:06pm] Philippe|Wiki: fajro, i think those are listed on wikistats, aren't they?

[10:06pm] fajro: LOL

[10:06pm] fajro: http://incubator.wikimedia.org

[10:06pm] Philippe|Wiki: eekim: it's where projects go to be translated and have a core before they become projects.

[10:07pm] eekim: thx, Philippe|Wiki

[10:07pm] eekim: and fajro

[10:07pm] fajro: The Incubator sucks.

[10:07pm] Philippe|Wiki: The incubator does, indeed, suck.

[10:07pm] eekim: the chart is a projection based on some very large assumptions

[10:08pm] eekim: the first bar to the left is our situation now

[10:08pm] eekim: it says that we have enough content to serve a market of 1.2 billion people

[10:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: fajro: http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikispecial/EN/Sitemap.htm has the incubator stats listed

[10:09pm] eekim: given current growth rates, that number would go up by 0.3 billion in three years

[10:09pm] Philippe|Wiki: oooooh, i get the graphic now.

[10:09pm] eekim: etc.

[10:09pm] Philippe|Wiki: thanks.

[10:09pm] fajro: Is better/easier to grow those projects in other wikis (like Wikia)

[10:09pm] Philippe|Wiki: so the number above the blocks is the difference incrementally.

[10:09pm] eekim: why do you say that, fajro?

[10:09pm] eekim: Philippe|Wiki, that's right

[10:10pm] fajro: all the projects in the incubator share the same recent changes page... it's a mess

[10:10pm] eekim: interesting

[10:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: it's unified recent changes writ large.

[10:11pm] eekim: wonder if there are any proposals right now for improving incubator

[10:11pm] • Philippe|Wiki goes to check

[10:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Merging_inactive_wikiprojects_of_small_languages

[10:12pm] eekim: nope

[10:12pm] eekim: that one isn't really about incubator directly

[10:12pm] eekim: fajro, you should draft a proposal to improve incubator

[10:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: yeah, you're right

[10:13pm] eekim: or at least say a few words as to why it makes it hard to grow projects on the Local language projects task force page: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Task_force/Local_language_projects

[10:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: fajro, just out of curiosity, what's your involvement with incubator been?

[10:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: (FYI, eekim, incubator is where language editions of projects go to die, too.... when we close them, they tend to go to incubator)

[10:14pm] • FT2-away hi's

[10:14pm] FT2-away is now known as FT2.

[10:15pm] eekim: hey FT2!

[10:15pm] • Philippe|Wiki waves to FT2

[10:15pm] fajro: I know some of the guys of the Mapudungun Wikipedia (Mapuche) http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/arn/W%C3%BCne_pakina

[10:15pm] eekim: we're discussing the Question of the week: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Question_of_the_week

[10:15pm] Philippe|Wiki: fajro, yeah, they've been there for a while, haven't they?

[10:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: That's one of the older incubated projects, as I recall.

[10:16pm] eekim: fajro, it would be great to get some of them onto strategy to talk about their experiences on incubator

[10:16pm] fajro: and it don't grow

[10:17pm] FT2: I have my answer to that question

[10:17pm] FT2: well, one of many possible answers

[10:18pm] • Philippe|Wiki nods. Hard to attract people to a wiki that doesn't have a home yet.

[10:18pm] eekim: let's hear them

[10:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: (in my opinion)

[10:18pm] FT2: As a top 5 site, Wikimedia/wikipedia has weight and strength. if it wants to do something specific and valuable, it has fundraising access, ears and capabilities, and gravitas.

[10:19pm] FT2: And if it's about educating and reference information, then one kind of education is educating people in its own resources

[10:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: fajro, how many native speakers? 200K, something like that, right? That should be plenty of possibility. But that's... Chile? How's the connectivity in the mountains?

[10:19pm] FT2: Educational videos on using WP, dubbed for less common languages

[10:20pm] FT2: show people what a local Wiki* can be used for in their world

[10:20pm] FT2: how people in (typically developing) countries can and do benefit and use it

[10:20pm] FT2: show them

[10:20pm] FT2: and dont pull punches

[10:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: FT2 - would be interesting to see that as part of the incubator requirements.

[10:20pm] Philippe|Wiki: First step: main page. Second step, translate the videos.

[10:21pm] FT2: we have women round the world who learn about not being effectively slaves, gaining eduication etc, from the web... countries with limited knowledge of the real world... work and quality of life skills

[10:21pm] FT2: show people what this can be for them

[10:21pm] FT2: and dub it into a hundred languages

[10:21pm] eekim: FT2, so you think the main obstacle is outreach?

[10:21pm] FT2: and make it prominent online

[10:21pm] FT2: Thats my $0.02

[10:21pm] • Philippe|Wiki makes a note to send a link to the log to Frank Schulenburg in public outreach

[10:22pm] FT2: Enough people in every culture love to learn and to improve their world.

[10:22pm] FT2: give them the tools

[10:22pm] FT2: means in this case, show them what the tools are and how to use them

[10:22pm] FT2: look at people who educate on fresh water, subsistence, and the like

[10:23pm] eekim: there hasn't been much on strategy about f2f outreach strategies

[10:23pm] FT2: They go to those countries and show people, "this is what they have in Vietnam, in France, in FInland, in Swaziland..."

[10:23pm] eekim: i think we should start discussing this in the context of FT2's thoughts

[10:23pm] FT2: Some will say "these people are starving, they need food not computers"

[10:23pm] eekim: not simply relying on Internet-outreach strategies or tool modifications

[10:24pm] FT2: commonly disagreed with. Some extreme cases yes. But even there - social structures, ideas, knowhow, knowledge...

[10:24pm] FT2: desperate need

[10:24pm] FT2: and people arent stupid. They will understand what it can mean

[10:24pm] FT2: that all villages in this area can share knowledge this way

[10:24pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yeah, Sj gives a good speech about that.

[10:24pm] FT2: might have issues with getting encyclopedicness 1st time round, but it's a start

[10:25pm] FT2: India produced one of the worlds top mathematicians.

[10:25pm] FT2: Ramanujan had to learn from 50 year out of date textbooks

[10:25pm] FT2: imagine what Indian children could be if they had access tot knowledge on all sciences, all medicine, all mathematics and technology

[10:26pm] FT2: show people what we mean.

[10:26pm] FT2: in many countries it's quality of life and not just "interesting knowledge for fringe people"

[10:26pm] FT2: nuff advocacy?

[10:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: <grin> you know, we've got this task force....

[10:26pm] eekim: i love it

[10:27pm] FT2: David Gerard once said the reward for a job well done is 3 more jobs.

[10:27pm] FT2: I decline

[10:27pm] FT2: (quickly!)

[10:27pm] eekim: it's a great articulation of where we _should_ go

[10:27pm] FT2: make one movie

[10:27pm] FT2: dub it

[10:27pm] FT2: subtitle it

[10:27pm] eekim: something that's easily lost when you get into the nitty gritty of strategy

[10:27pm] FT2: and launch "Wikipedia TV" online

[10:27pm] FT2: in 100 languages of your choice

[10:28pm] eekim: who should do it?

[10:28pm] FT2: eduucational channel for making the most of Wikipedia and wikimedia, and Wiki knowledge

[10:28pm] FT2: and work with local chapters, whose goals are usually to promote wiki based learning locally.

[10:28pm] FT2: and who know the countries

[10:29pm] FT2: propose it, do a spec, get chapters feedback, when it solidifies, do a final proposal ("this is what we propose to create and what it'll show" - tell people what they're going to get up font, so no surprises)...

[10:29pm] FT2: then create it

[10:30pm] FT2: provide an EN script a- between local users and chapters a foreign lang script and dubbed version's easy

[10:30pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yeah; transcomm figured out the kinks last time around.

[10:30pm] eekim: of the hundreds of proposals people have made, why should we prioritize this one?

[10:30pm] FT2: oh yeah and insert above, "ask chapters feedback how they would use and synergize with it, if such a channel were available online and media versions (DVD) offline

[10:31pm] FT2: forgot that

[10:31pm] FT2: there y'go

[10:31pm] FT2: one proposal

[10:31pm] FT2: Dunno

[10:31pm] Philippe|Wiki: ...just add water.

[10:31pm] FT2: the question was how to increase uptake

[10:31pm] eekim:

[10:31pm] FT2: answer - mshow people why it matters and helps them

[10:31pm] eekim: that's right

[10:31pm] eekim: we'll link this log off the QOTW page

[10:31pm] FT2: nobody made "why should this be prioritized" a question of the week

[10:31pm] eekim:

[10:32pm] eekim: absolutely

[10:32pm] FT2: clean it up though. Its got way too many short lines.

[10:32pm] FT2: I trust you to summarize fairly

[10:32pm] eekim: or, you could summarize it yourself

[10:32pm] FT2: "that sounds like work"

[10:32pm] eekim: since we've all been deeply engaged in this process, let's take the discussion to the next level

[10:33pm] FT2:

[10:33pm] eekim: work?! it's _fun_ to edit wikis!!!

[10:33pm] FT2: oh

[10:33pm] FT2: oh yeah.

[10:33pm] FT2: right.

[10:33pm] eekim: (that'll go in the video)

[10:33pm] • FT2 crosslinks :[:[Self harm]] to :[:[Wikipedia:Editing]]

[10:33pm] • eekim laughs

[10:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: :[:[Addiction]] -> :[:[Madness]] -> :[:[You can edit!]]

[10:34pm] eekim: that'll be the subtitle of the video

[10:34pm] eekim: the director's cut

[10:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: with deleted scenes!

[10:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: ...which are text only, of course

[10:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: hey fajro: I just checked... 240,000 speakers; mostly in Chile and Argentina, in some areas that aren't incredibly wired. Any idea how big the ex-pat community is for Mapudungun?

[10:35pm] FT2: When you do, be careful... many cultures will be worse at COI/advocacy than ours - sorry for a generalization but its a gut instinct... so be careful to mention "Wikipedia only contains information that is written by selected people and places, to help people like <name> rely on it."

[10:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: Is it big enough to support a wiki, and we're just not doing the right outreach?

[10:36pm] FT2: sorry, bad wording... encyclopedicness is hard to explain in simple terms, but it comes down to self uinntrerest too, they need that expectation in there up front.

[10:37pm] eekim: that's a loaded disclaimer

[10:37pm] FT2: yes

[10:37pm] FT2: Im not a marketer or outreacher

[10:37pm] FT2: I know my limits

[10:37pm] eekim: not sure anyone can communicate that simply in words alone

[10:38pm] FT2: multimedia - show them it.

[10:38pm] eekim: sitting near cary for the past few months has been sobering

[10:38pm] FT2: somehow

[10:38pm] FT2: is isnt it

[10:38pm] FT2: try enwiki Arbcom

[10:38pm] FT2: frying pan to fire

[10:38pm] You changed the topic to "Strategy. Check out the Question of the Week! http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Question_of_the_week".

[10:38pm] eekim: people who call have such unusual assumptions about wikipedia

[10:39pm] FT2: Yes. "We publish this about you but we cant do anything about it" is a bit counterintuitive for most

[10:39pm] eekim: sometimes, i wonder whether it's better not to advertise that sort of thing, at least from a consumption point of view

[10:39pm] FT2: "In fact nobody and everybody can, so there"

[10:39pm] eekim: that's right

[10:39pm] Philippe|Wiki: FT2, yeah, eekim and i were having a conversation about that earlier.

[10:40pm] eekim: maybe it's best for people to use it for a while assuming it's something they understand, then let them discover how it works when they're already addicted to it

[10:40pm] FT2: or else...

[10:40pm] FT2: considering how enwiki grew

[10:40pm] FT2: at the start a HUGE amount of tolerance for OR and imperfect content

[10:40pm] Philippe|Wiki: We keep realizing that there are so many people in the community who know this stuff so well; how do we get them to come share their knowledge for us? We need wikimedia-pedia pages about these issues and ideas.

[10:40pm] FT2: as it got substantial, that tightened

[10:41pm] Philippe|Wiki: s/for/with

[10:41pm] FT2: for example when I staretd editing, there was no cite (REF../REF) system...the rule was you posted what you liked, and someone might ask for a source on the talk page, perhaps.

[10:41pm] eekim: having an ecosystem of wikis is very helpful in this regard

[10:41pm] FT2: maybe developing countries' citizens should not be expected to have access to "reliable sources" or education and such?

[10:41pm] FT2: consider that whole assumption

[10:41pm] eekim: come learn and play on smaller wikis, then "graduate" to bigger ones when you've got the feel of it

[10:42pm] FT2: or create a draft: namespace

[10:42pm] FT2: where mistakes and draft content is writable

[10:42pm] eekim: there are people on strategy who would get eaten alive on en.wp based on how they use the wiki

[10:42pm] eekim: but on strategy, it's safe for them to play and learn

[10:42pm] FT2: and tag articles when you think they are ready for mainspace

[10:42pm] FT2: maybe thats a model for some places?

[10:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: Hmmm, i like the "draft" namespace

[10:43pm] FT2: I do too.

[10:43pm] FT2: for several reasons

[10:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: good place to send things that aren't ref'd too.

[10:43pm] FT2: right now I can add anything I like, and google'll spider it and it'll be replicated as "wikipedia", before anyone can AFD it

[10:44pm] FT2: meantime anyone might read t before basics are ok

[10:44pm] FT2: get it basicly viable, then mainspace it.

[10:44pm] eekim: couldn't we accomplish the same with the {{Draft}} tag?

[10:44pm] FT2: doesnt stop "anyone editing"

[10:44pm] Philippe|Wiki: only if it's nofollow'd

[10:44pm] Philippe|Wiki: or no-spidered, rather

[10:44pm] FT2: just tag it Template:Mainspace plz

[10:45pm] FT2: and someone'll either mainspace it or explain what's needed or help fix it or whatever

[10:45pm] Philippe|Wiki: If the issue is that everything in mainspace is replicated and mirror'd, we need to get some things out of mainspace.

[10:45pm] FT2: yep. NOINDEX the entire of it

[10:45pm] FT2: not even

[10:45pm] FT2: new content is by default created in draft:

[10:45pm] FT2: When ready it's move to mainspace

[10:45pm] FT2: in the meantime its safe to develop

[10:46pm] Philippe|Wiki: what about later additions to the content? flagged ref'd back to draftspace?

[10:46pm] FT2: and anyone else can see articles under development and collaborate too

[10:46pm] eekim: isn't this conceptually equivalent to FlaggedRevs?

[10:46pm] eekim: at least from a quality point of view?

[10:46pm] FT2: for now keep it simple - once its in mainspace (basic quality) assume it stays basic quality

[10:46pm] FT2: few articles go so dire they have to be killed

[10:46pm] FT2: nop..

[10:46pm] Philippe|Wiki: I can think of two that I'm dealing with now, FT2.

[10:46pm] FT2: its more like a formal sandbox space

[10:46pm] Philippe|Wiki: and they're BLPs

[10:47pm] FT2: rather than a sandbox page

[10:47pm] Philippe|Wiki: BLPs dont tend to START badly, they GO badly.

[10:47pm] FT2: if you arenmt sure or you're new, draft articles in the draft sopace... someone will help when you think its ready

[10:47pm] eekim: this is the kind of idea that needs to be tested so we can learn from it

[10:47pm] FT2: and suddenly, developing articles gets a lot easier, and articles that should never be in mainspace dont get there

[10:47pm] eekim: otherwise, it'll be hard to convince people to try

[10:48pm] FT2: indeed

[10:48pm] eekim: my axe to grind: need an infrastructure that supports more experimentation

[10:48pm] eekim: more learning, less opinions

[10:48pm] FT2: create the namespace and the tools for it, link to it as the default location to create in from "this page doesnt exist, you can create it"but leave its use optional

[10:48pm] FT2: and leave the rest optional

[10:49pm] FT2: Suppose I want to write an article on the Middle east war 2013.....

[10:49pm] FT2: Im a newcomer or newish

[10:49pm] FT2: I write it in mainspace

[10:49pm] FT2: everything I say is spidered... good bad and any

[10:50pm] FT2: Its immediatly warred and dispouted.

[10:50pm] FT2: BLPO vio content is hammered and I'm warned

[10:50pm] FT2: and so on

[10:50pm] FT2: or I figure to do it in user space

[10:50pm] FT2: nobody knows Im doing it

[10:51pm] FT2: nobody can spot it or collaborate on it.

[10:51pm] FT2: not easily

[10:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: yeah, that's the problem with the advice we give new users: do it in userspace

[10:51pm] FT2: point me to draft space as the best practice, all those are solved

[10:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: Then they don't learn until they publish.

[10:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: ...and get hammered there.

[10:53pm] FT2: some thoughts

[10:53pm] FT2: whats next?

[10:53pm] eekim: for tonight?

[10:53pm] FT2: mhm

[10:53pm] eekim: or for the foreseeable future?

[10:53pm] FT2: now?

[10:53pm] eekim: i'm thinking sleep

[10:53pm] Philippe|Wiki: likewise.

[10:54pm] eekim: been a long week

[10:54pm] eekim: and it just started!

[10:54pm] FT2: night

[10:54pm] eekim: btw, i know i've said it before, but thanks for all your _great_ work on the quality task force

[10:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: +1

[10:54pm] eekim: can't say it enough

[10:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: you've done a spectacular job. So has everyone.

[10:55pm] Philippe|Wiki: I have been trying to be deliberate about saying that, because I'm so impressed.

[10:55pm] eekim: really looking forward to the next phase, when we start evaluating and prioritizing these babies

[10:55pm] eekim: the discussion is going to be awesome

[10:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: Gentlemen, Great ideas tonight!

[10:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: i'll get a log up.

[10:56pm] eekim: thanks FT2 and fajro

[10:56pm] eekim: and as always, thanks Philippe|Wiki

[10:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: **** END LOG ****