IRC office hours/2010-01-12

Philippe|Wiki: *** BEGIN LOG ***

[12:01pm] Jinx joined the chat room.

[12:01pm] Fleetflame joined the chat room.

[12:01pm] eekim: task forces are finalizing their recommendations today

[12:01pm] Pharos: are we?

[12:01pm] Pharos: er...

[12:01pm] eekim: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Recommendations

[12:01pm] eekim: hi Pharos

[12:01pm] eekim: yeah, Movement Roles is a bit... behind

[12:02pm] eekim: not every task force came to recommendations

[12:02pm] eekim: that's okay

[12:02pm] Pharos: yeah, it would be good to get a short extension

[12:02pm] eekim: the purpose of the recommendations was to take us one step forward

[12:02pm] eekim: there will be another opportunity to get to where we need to go

[12:02pm] Pharos: I think we would like to have recommendations

[12:02pm] eekim: definitely, Pharos

[12:03pm] Pharos: but participation has been quite low since the holiday season

[12:03pm] eekim: i'm going to ping each group individually tomorrow about what comes next, including what to do if you didn't complete your work

[12:03pm] eekim: but, i can give all of you a preview now

[12:04pm] eekim: for certain task forces (movement roles being an example, reader conversion and expanding content being others), i'd like to see individuals express their opinions, even if the group itself did not converge toward a recommendation

[12:04pm] Kozuch joined the chat room.

[12:04pm] Amgine left the chat room. (Excess Flood)

[12:05pm] eekim: so, for example, Pharos, I'd love to hear recommendations you might have

[12:05pm] Amgine joined the chat room.

[12:05pm] eekim: now is also the opportunity for all of us to comment on each other's work

[12:05pm] Pharos: Sue made some recommendations, and I made some, and I like both

[12:05pm] eekim: so the best next step is to look at the recommendations and discuss them: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Recommendations

[12:06pm] eekim: Pharos, perhaps you can merge those onto your recommendations pages

[12:06pm] eekim: you still have time

[12:06pm] Pharos: thanks, I'll do that today

[12:07pm] eekim: fantastic, thanks

[12:07pm] eekim: now is also the opportunity for all of us to start coming together as a community and broadening participation on this project

[12:07pm] FloNight: I'm very proud of the work that my task force did...Community Health. We got alot of work done. But we still have a few loose ends to tie up, too. Mostly related to implementation.

[12:07pm] britty: is it too late to suggest to start a new task force not listed here?

[12:07pm] eekim: FloNight, Community Health task force was outstanding

[12:07pm] eekim: many thanks to all of you

[12:07pm] eekim: britty, it's not too late

[12:07pm] britty: kul and i talked about it last year (sorry i'm always slow)

[12:08pm] Philippe|Wiki: FloNight: Community health gets a gold star

[12:08pm] britty: ok so later, eekim please continue

[12:08pm] eekim: what's your suggestoin?

[12:08pm] FloNight: Thanks

[12:08pm] britty: eh outreach in japan

[12:08pm] eekim: ah... excellent, britty

[12:08pm] eekim: that actually is a very relevant topic right now

[12:08pm] • Philippe|Wiki nods. Eekim and I chatted about that last night actually

[12:08pm] britty: thx

[12:08pm] cary joined the chat room.

[12:08pm] eekim: this, in some ways, is a movement roles issue

[12:09pm] cary is now known as cary-afk.

[12:09pm] FloNight: hi Cary

[12:09pm] DragonFire_aw left the chat room. (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))

[12:09pm] britty: interesting / hi cary

[12:09pm] _sj_ joined the chat room.

[12:09pm] eekim: should the Foundation, for example, invest in putting someone on the ground in certain countries?

[12:09pm] FloNight: hi sj

[12:09pm] britty: sh

[12:09pm] eekim: to help with outreach

[12:09pm] britty: sj i meant

[12:09pm] eekim: hey SJ!

[12:10pm] cary-afk: Hi

[12:10pm] Philippe|Wiki: ...or, for example (and this is one that hasn't been vetted, to my knowledge), invest in making the interface look or feel local beyond simply language localization.

[12:10pm] cary-afk: I'm going to get some food

[12:10pm] eekim: britty, i'll point you to specific places on the wiki where you can express some of your opinions

[12:10pm] britty: thanks eekim

[12:10pm] Pharos: yes, they should, eekim

[12:10pm] Pharos: one employee in India could do a lot

[12:10pm] eekim: Pharos, so if that's the case, the question is: which countries? how should the Foundation decide?

[12:10pm] Platonides: Philippe|Wiki, it is important to have a consistent look and feel between projects

[12:11pm] guillom joined the chat room.

[12:11pm] britty: cary-afk, buon appetito

[12:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: Platonides: That's discussion that I think should happen. I am not advocating the position, simply stating it as a question.

[12:11pm] Pharos: partly, it's an issue of chapters

[12:12pm] Pharos: Sue has proposed seed funding for chapter stafff

[12:12pm] Pharos: of course, that doesn't apply in places w/o chapters

[12:12pm] FloNight: hi guillom

[12:12pm] marlita left the chat room. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

[12:12pm] Pharos: WP arabic is the only one that has a "local look anf feel", btw

[12:12pm] britty: lut guillom

[12:12pm] guillom: hi there

[12:13pm] eekim: hi guillom

[12:13pm] marlita joined the chat room.

[12:13pm] eekim: projects should have consistent look-and-feel. but does consistent mean "same"?

[12:13pm] Philippe|Wiki: Discussion about whether the Foundation should invest in seeding chapters and outreach can be found on the wiki at http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Task_force/Movement_Roles#Question:_should_we_recommend_investing_in_accelerating_chapter_development_1132 by the way :0

[12:14pm] guillom: eekim, sorry for asking, but what is your last comment referring to?

[12:14pm] eekim: it's clear from feedback that in certain countries, the look-and-feel is an obstacle to participation, because it looks too Western

[12:14pm] Pharos: really, which countries? What do websites in those countries look like?

[12:14pm] eekim: guillom, one of the topics is whether we should invest in customizing the look-and-feel for specific language projects

[12:14pm] marlita: eekim: participation as in readership or contributions?

[12:14pm] guillom: ah, ok; thanks!

[12:15pm] eekim: China, for example

[12:15pm] eekim: it's come up in their task force discussion

[12:15pm] GerardM-: eekim: then it would be cool first to solve the rtl issues

[12:15pm] eekim: britty, i wonder if that's the case in japan also?

[12:15pm] Philippe|Wiki: The question about whether to invest in on-the-ground resources in India can be found at http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Task_force/India

[12:15pm] Blurpeace joined the chat room.

[12:15pm] eekim: hey GerardM

[12:15pm] eekim: no question, RTL issues should be addressed (imo)

[12:16pm] eekim: i think that's an issue that spans multiple projects, not just one

[12:16pm] fetchcomms joined the chat room.

[12:16pm] eekim: marlita, both

[12:16pm] marlita: eekim: thanks

[12:16pm] eekim: (wow, we're hopping today!)

[12:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: RTL issues are currently being addressed at: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Recommendations/Local_Language_3

[12:16pm] Philippe|Wiki:

[12:17pm] fetchcomms left the chat room.

[12:17pm] eekim: so first and foremost, the next step is to have discussions like these on the wiki

[12:17pm] hejko left the chat room. ("Leaving...")

[12:17pm] eekim: many people have thought deeply about these issues over the past few months, so discussion should be really substantive

[12:17pm] eekim: the second step is to be more intentional in bringing others to this conversation

[12:18pm] eekim: now that the wiki has been seeded with so many good ideas and research, i think we're in a good place to bring in many more participants

[12:18pm] eekim: i'd love it if all of you added yourselves to the Hosts list if you haven't already: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Planning:Hosts

[12:19pm] FloNight: eekim or philippe, which task forces were looking at ways to address groups that were under represented. Like ways to address the low participation rate by females.

[12:19pm] eekim: we also could use a Host Badge that we all could put on our User pages to show that we're hosts on this wiki

[12:19pm] eekim: FloNight, Reader Conversion was supposed to do that, but they never reached any recommendations

[12:19pm] Juandev joined the chat room.

[12:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: FloNight: We had hoped that Reader Conversion would look at that. That has not been an active task force, unfortunately.

[12:19pm] FloNight:

[12:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: But that doesn't mean those issues will be ignored. I hope that everyone here will begin to carry that conversation

[12:19pm] eekim: i think we need to make sure those ideas are captured

[12:20pm] Pharos: the best idea I heard for that was recruiting more librarians

[12:21pm] wizzy left the chat room.

[12:21pm] eekim: that conversation needs to happen... and there's still time for it

[12:21pm] Philippe|Wiki: heh, thanks, Pharos. I think that was me, in Paris

[12:21pm] eekim: task forces can continue and get revitalized, and ideas will be heard

[12:21pm] britty: catching librarians looks a good idea: many librarians are sympathic to wikipedia and experienced in educating people in a broad way

[12:21pm] eekim: remember, this is a movement-wide process

[12:22pm] eekim: different people will be needed to help make different projects a reality

[12:22pm] GerardM-: q did you follow the Swahili google project ?

[12:22pm] eekim: our challenge is not just capturing good ideas, but activating people to do them

[12:22pm] marlita: on my same old drum: have to tie recruitment to retention (usability, newbie treatment, etc)

[12:22pm] eekim: GerardM, yes, we've been in touch with them

[12:22pm] GerardM-: do you consider it a success ?

[12:23pm] eekim: Christine Moon's coming to the Foundation later this week to present. i'll let you know then.

[12:23pm] eekim: do you have opinions, GerardM?

[12:23pm] jeblad: As swahili editors at the universities?

[12:23pm] GerardM-: yes I have .. but prefer to hear you opinion first

[12:23pm] eekim: marlita, see: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_change

[12:23pm] eekim: marlita, that's an attempt to show the relationship between these different objectives and leverage points

[12:24pm] marlita: eekim: thank you; will do

[12:24pm] eekim: GerardM, ask me again in a week

[12:25pm] Fleetflame left the chat room. (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))

[12:26pm] eekim: GerardM, christine's coming on January 22

[12:26pm] eekim: so ask me in two weeks

[12:26pm] eekim: jeblad, yes this was Google's initiative to encourage people to edit Swahili Wikipedia

[12:27pm] jeblad: Okey, discussed that with someone involved

[12:27pm] eekim: excellent

[12:27pm] eekim: do you have thoughts on whether it's been successful, jeblad?

[12:27pm] jeblad: He said it quite bluntly, it was a failure

[12:28pm] eekim: why?

[12:28pm] jeblad: the resoning was quite simple

[12:28pm] jeblad: Swahili is tought and used at college level, not at university level

[12:28pm] jeblad: And the project adressed students at the university level

[12:29pm] eekim: interesting

[12:29pm] eekim: i'll point christine to this log

[12:29pm] jeblad: He said the people involved was told this several times but didn't listen

[12:29pm] eekim: argh. hate to hear that

[12:30pm] jeblad: He also said he tought it was impossible to bypass the universities, so it was a "system failure" not a failure on the individuals involved

[12:30pm] • jeblad dont speak swahili...

[12:30pm] eekim: thanks, jeblad. this is really interesting feedback.

[12:31pm] eekim: this stuff is hard. the first step is to listen. then you have to act accordingly.

[12:31pm] eekim: a surprisingly larger number of people have trouble with that first step.

[12:31pm] eekim: it's the most challenging one

[12:31pm] jeblad: Yeah, but people higher up in the politics also has to respond accordingly and they do not necessary share the same goals

[12:32pm] cary-afk is now known as cary-lunch.

[12:32pm] eekim: true enough

[12:32pm] eekim: we can have a long and interesting conversation about how to institute change

[12:32pm] jeblad: He said the use of Swahili drops very distinctly at the university

[12:32pm] eekim: it's actually relevant to what we're doing

[12:32pm] Philippe|Wiki: So, eekim - at some point would you share the immediate next steps so people know what to expect? (just want to make sure it doesn't get dropped)

[12:33pm] eekim: thanks, philippe

[12:33pm] eekim: i listed the first two already

[12:33pm] eekim: comment on task force recommendations: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Recommendations

[12:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: yeah we've had a lot of joins. Reiteration is good.

[12:33pm] eekim: and be a host: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Planning:Hosts

[12:34pm] eekim: the third thing is much more broad, and is related to hosts

[12:34pm] eekim: we need to clean up, organize, and flesh out the work that's already there

[12:34pm] eekim: and we need to invite a lot more people to participate

[12:34pm] eekim: we're going to post to CentralNotice next week

[12:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: Lots of good work going on there already - hat tip to Verdy p, for instance

[12:35pm] eekim: but individual invitations often work best

[12:35pm] eekim: so i hope all of you will reach out to people you know and invite them to participate

[12:35pm] eekim: i love, for example, what Amgine did with Wiktionary last night: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary

[12:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: indeed

[12:35pm] eekim: and seconding Philippe|Wiki's comment about Verdy p -- awesome

[12:36pm] Amgine: Shh. You're ruining my reputation.

[12:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: oh, Amgine, you don't have a rep to ruin.

[12:36pm] • Philippe|Wiki fleeees

[12:36pm] eekim: i ain't apologizing, Amgine.

[12:36pm] MuZemike joined the chat room.

[12:37pm] Amgine: <gg>

[12:37pm] Philippe|Wiki: Just out of curiosity, I wonder if those of you who were part of the task force process could share your impressions of the process? Good or bad?

[12:37pm] Philippe|Wiki: you would ideally do that on the wiki somewhere, but here works too

[12:37pm] Pharos: we should have been nudged more

[12:38pm] Pharos: or maybe more members, I'm not sure

[12:38pm] • Philippe|Wiki nods

[12:38pm] Amgine: Earlier, smaller deadlines.

[12:38pm] Philippe|Wiki: Amgine, good point too. Can you give an example?

[12:39pm] Philippe|Wiki: do you mean, like, earlier iterations of drafts on deadlines?

[12:39pm] Amgine: Nov. 15: have general musings completed. Dec. 15: have outlines of recommendations done. Jan 15: have recommendations done.

[12:39pm] Philippe|Wiki: OK, I agree.

[12:40pm] Amgine: Specific, achievable, measurable....

[12:40pm] Amgine: (swap the last two...)

[12:41pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yeah, some clear methedology might have been helpful

[12:42pm] eekim: thanks for the feedback, Pharos and Amgine

[12:43pm] eekim: how do people feel about the whole process in general so far?

[12:43pm] Amgine: btw: passing on a complaint about the wiki....

[12:43pm] Amgine: "uh, the layout of that wiki is kind of ugly."

[12:43pm] FloNight: One of challenges is bringing in more people (which we want) during the process, and also continuing moving forward. New people, while needed and add value, slow down the process.

[12:44pm] Amgine: "and why is there no edit button? "

[12:44pm] Amgine: "are anonymous people not allowed to edit there?"

[12:44pm] Philippe|Wiki: Hmmm, there's an edit button, and anons are allowed to edit (and do)

[12:44pm] eekim: Amgine, you know the answers to those questions, no?

[12:44pm] Amgine: <nods> Yes I do.

[12:44pm] Philippe|Wiki: someone not used to the skin?

[12:44pm] Amgine: Yep.

[12:44pm] eekim: cool, thx

[12:45pm] Philippe|Wiki:

[12:45pm] eekim: FloNight, I totally hear you

[12:45pm] Philippe|Wiki: Ack, I totally missed FloNight's comment, and it's a really valuable one.

[12:45pm] eekim: these next few months will be another forming period, as new people join the conversation

[12:45pm] MuZemike left the chat room. ("ChatZilla 0.9.86 :[Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]")

[12:46pm] Philippe|Wiki: (everyone gets eekim's forming statement there? The three phases of groups? Forming, Storming, Norming?)

[12:46pm] Amgine: One of the issues I have personally faced is working with people not as knowledgeable about some aspects of some issues.

[12:46pm] eekim: that said, we're in a much better position, because we already have a good core community of people who have spent a lot of time hashing out some of these issues

[12:47pm] eekim: four phases of group formation: http://blueoxen.net/wiki/Group_Development

[12:47pm] Philippe|Wiki: four, sorry

[12:47pm] eekim: didn't mean to go there, though.

[12:47pm] Philippe|Wiki: One thing that I think is about to be a challenge:

[12:48pm] Philippe|Wiki: As we get more folks to come and evaluate, some of the assumptions for recommendations may be challenged

[12:48pm] eekim: Amgine, we need to leverage the wiki as a way to get those people up to speed

[12:48pm] Philippe|Wiki: I think our task forces will need to be prepared to show people the path to the work they've done

[12:48pm] eekim: it's important that we capture our knowledge in a useful and organized fashion so that people are well-informed

[12:48pm] Philippe|Wiki: And I'm sure they'll do a great job at that.

[12:48pm] eekim left the chat room.

[12:48pm] Philippe|Wiki: we lost eekim

[12:48pm] Amgine: eekim: it's hard to explain some topics in a brief enough manner.

[12:48pm] marlita: this is also an opportunity to provide those smaller deadlines/deliverables/etc Amgine mentioned so that the new people have support structure and the process isn't slowed down as much

[12:48pm] Philippe|Wiki: i heard an "oops" from aross the room

[12:48pm] eekim joined the chat room.

[12:48pm] Philippe|Wiki: there he is.

[12:48pm] FloNight: Amgine, while true that everyone did not know as much about the issues, the people in my task force were very open to learning more. So that made the work doable. And there fresh perspective was good.

[12:48pm] eekim: argh... hit the wrong key

[12:49pm] Amgine: heh

[12:49pm] eekim: as i was about to say, that's the value of wikimedia-pedia: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-pedia

[12:49pm] Amgine: FloNight: Agreed. Sometimes a frustrating amount of time was involved in those teaching/learning moments though.

[12:49pm] Philippe|Wiki: eekim, in terms of providing context, you mean?

[12:49pm] eekim: a lot of the knowledge garnered from the discussions was captured in Wikimedia-pedia, which will make it easier to get others up to speed

[12:50pm] eekim: Philippe|Wiki, yes

[12:50pm] Philippe|Wiki: (for the record, there are about 190 pages in the wikimedia-pedia category - some of them are translations, but a vast amount of content)

[12:50pm] Philippe|Wiki: That is largely thanks to the work of the task forces, who wrote most of it.

[12:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: and our friends at the Bridgespan Group, who did a tremendous amount of research as well.

[12:51pm] eekim: what Philippe said

[12:51pm] eekim: i think there's a lot more to come from a lot of people

[12:52pm] Pharos: the centralnotice is next week?

[12:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: Pharos, yes.

[12:52pm] eekim: that's the current plan, Pharos

[12:53pm] eekim: i think one of the most valuable things about this whole process has been for all of us to learn what it means to go through a strategic planning process

[12:53pm] Pharos: ok, that gijust ves me time to make one last recommendation, and see if other folks are ok with it

[12:53pm] eekim: a big part of that is simply assessing where we already are

[12:53pm] eekim: and that's something the community of editors is already good at

[12:53pm] eekim: Pharos,

[12:54pm] eekim: of course, we have more to learn

[12:54pm] eekim: specifically, how can we take all this great data, analysis, and discussion, and converge toward a plan for the next five years

[12:54pm] Amgine: Which reminds me of a Magnetic Fields song....

[12:55pm] eekim: i'm very confident about this, given all of you

[12:57pm] Philippe|Wiki: As phase two draws to a conclusion, by the way, it seems an appropriate time to deliver my thanks to everyone who's participated before. As most of you know, I've been around for years, and this process is very important to me (and, I know, to all of you). So in my capacity as a long time user of the projects... thank you for your dedication. And for wanting to help them take the next steps.

[12:57pm] eekim: an excellent note to end things on

[12:58pm] Philippe|Wiki: As usual, you know where to find us

[12:58pm] eekim: thanks everyone for coming, and thanks for all of your hard work

[12:58pm] eekim: more to come!

[12:58pm] eekim: see you on the wiki!

[12:58pm] • Philippe|Wiki goes foraging for food.

[12:58pm] Philippe|Wiki: *** END LOG ***

[12:58pm]