IRC office hours/2010-03-02

Philippe|Wiki: hey folks

[8:11pm] Keegan joined the chat room.

[8:11pm] Philippe|Wiki: Hey Keegan

[8:11pm] Natalie: Is it office hours?

[8:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: Supposed to be, yup So far I'm sitting alone at my desk tho

[8:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: hey Natalie

[8:12pm] Keegan: Hi!

[8:12pm] Keegan: Just got home, I smell like basil

[8:12pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan, I was taking your name in vain tonight.

[8:12pm] Keegan: Oh?

[8:12pm] • Natalie wonders why he's still idling in here...

[8:13pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan: yep... was talking to Rebecca. Told her I hadn't heard anything from that BLP we sent you a while back, but I was fairly sure that's because you hadn't heard anything.

[8:13pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: because you like to look at my smiling face?

[8:13pm] Natalie: No.

[8:13pm] Philippe|Wiki: The free drinks?

[8:13pm] Keegan: Yeah, I haven't

[8:13pm] Keegan: I'll email him tomorrow

[8:13pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan: I thought that was the case.

[8:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: Don't trip over yourself for him... Give him a nudge, and then call it done

[8:14pm] Keegan: Oh sure

[8:14pm] Keegan: If he's no further issues, it is

[8:14pm] Philippe|Wiki: good call.

[8:14pm] Keegan: In which case, I didn't do a thing. Yay!

[8:15pm] Philippe|Wiki: heh... that's what we call "success"... nothing went wrong.

[8:15pm] Keegan: Rebecca is nice

[8:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: She's a sweetheart.

[8:16pm] Philippe|Wiki: I adore her.

[8:17pm] Keegan: Natalie: because you like to look at my smiling face?

[8:18pm] Natalie: No.

[8:18pm] Keegan: Meanie.

[8:18pm] howief joined the chat room.

[8:18pm] Philippe|Wiki: That's our Natalie

[8:19pm] Natalie: howief?

[8:19pm] Natalie: Is that the usability guy?

[8:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: It is indeed. Or his computer, anyway.

[8:19pm] Natalie: howief: Are you here?

[8:19pm] Philippe|Wiki: If his is like mine, it connects automatically.

[8:19pm] Natalie: He might actually make this meeting worthwhile.

[8:19pm] howief: hey Natalie

[8:19pm] Natalie: Hey.

[8:19pm] Natalie: howief: Got a few minutes?

[8:19pm] howief: what's up?

[8:20pm] Natalie: howief: Have you been working on FlaggedRevs at all?

[8:20pm] Natalie: Or, rather, are you familiar with the current status?

[8:20pm] howief: i'm working on something else right now, but sure

[8:20pm] howief: y

[8:20pm] howief: yes, i'm working on flagged revs

[8:21pm] Natalie: What's the current status?

[8:21pm] howief: i believe william is trying to get the changes put on a test wiki

[8:21pm] Natalie: Any idea why that's taking so long?

[8:21pm] howief: i actually don't

[8:21pm] howief: i'm anxious to get something up too

[8:21pm] howief: it's taken a little longer than i had anticipated

[8:21pm] Natalie: Are you a PHP developer?

[8:21pm] Natalie: A little? Hah.

[8:22pm] howief: no

[8:22pm] howief: unfortunately not

[8:22pm] Natalie: So what is it that you do?

[8:22pm] howief: i figure out how to make things less complicated

[8:22pm] Natalie: Philippe|Wiki: I think William showed his hand on foundation-l, by the way. The whole "I'm taking a 70% pay cut" pretty much points to what the issue is here....

[8:22pm] Natalie: howief: How's that been going?

[8:22pm] Philippe|Wiki: Actually, you'd love it, Natalie... Howief is working on redesigning the LiquidThreads interface (which you hate)

[8:23pm] howief: it's been going well

[8:23pm] howief: just waiting to see the changes

[8:23pm] Natalie: So that makes two projects that are at a complete standstill due to Howie?

[8:23pm] howief: yes

[8:23pm] howief: i try to slow things down whenever possible

[8:23pm] Natalie: Well, props for honesty.

[8:23pm] howief: haha

[8:23pm] howief: but if you have things you don't like about liquidthreads

[8:23pm] howief: send them my way

[8:23pm] Natalie: I have notes here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:LiquidThreads/Notes

[8:24pm] howief: great

[8:24pm] Natalie: Though I'm not sure how out-of-date they are. Werdna seems to work on LQT on every third Thursday or something.

[8:24pm] Natalie: I can't really figure it out.

[8:24pm] howief: yeah, he's currently working on some changes

[8:24pm] howief: wow that's a long list

[8:25pm] Natalie: There's more here: http://liquidthreads.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Thread:Feedback/Further_issues

[8:25pm] howief: i like it

[8:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: actually, I wish you and Howie could talk at some point, not on IRC... because I think you'll find he's one of the ones that you like. He's all about making things work.

[8:25pm] howief: thanks Philippe|Wiki

[8:25pm] Natalie: Philippe|Wiki: I wish FR would just be enabled.

[8:25pm] Philippe|Wiki: And howief; Natalie... freakshow that Natalie is.... is one of those folks that cares so much that you want to throttle xim

[8:25pm] Natalie: Though I think I've made that clear this week.

[8:25pm] Natalie: Did you just "xim" me?

[8:26pm] • Keegan grins

[8:26pm] Natalie: howief: Are you working in SF?

[8:26pm] Keegan: Yeah, Natalie means well in criticism as inspiration

[8:26pm] howief: ha

[8:26pm] howief: yeah, i'm in sf

[8:26pm] Natalie: Is there a going rate to stab Erik?

[8:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: yes, i "xim'd" you, because I'm tryin not to out your gender. But f' it. Natalie is a freak because he cares.

[8:26pm] Natalie: omg outing

[8:26pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: Sorry. You can't do that. Don't talk like that, not in here.

[8:27pm] howief: you've been outed

[8:27pm] howief: ok i gotta jet

[8:27pm] Natalie: I originally wrote something worse than "stab," but whatev.

[8:27pm] howief: but thanks for sending me the liquidthreads stuff

[8:27pm] howief: btw

[8:27pm] Natalie: If Erik has an issue, he can talk to me.

[8:27pm] Natalie: But he's been hiding.

[8:27pm] Natalie: So...

[8:27pm] howief: here is what william posted on about FR

[8:28pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: Perhaps, but you know I'm all about creating a healthy environment, and - at least in my presence - you can't talk like that about my coworkers. Please try to keep it under control, okay?

[8:28pm] howief: As you can see, we have a bunch of completed changes that need to be deployed to an environment where we can get real feedback on them. Once we get the feedback from the community, we'll have a better idea of how close we are to releasing to the English Wikipedia.

[8:28pm] howief: The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to different hardware. That site is currently running on the production cluster, and we can't release new test versions of the software there without risk of trouble for production wikis using FlaggedRevs.

[8:28pm] howief: Rob Halsell has recycled an old server for our use, and we are working to get it configured in a way that's enough like the production environment that we will have some confidence that a successful test there will mean a successful rollout on the English Wikipedia. Unfortunately, the production environment is complicated, and Rob has a lot on his plate, probably too much, so this is taking a while.

[8:28pm] Natalie: Philippe|Wiki: See above.

[8:28pm] Natalie: I've moved on.

[8:28pm] Philippe|Wiki: Good

[8:28pm] Philippe|Wiki: thanks

[8:29pm] Natalie: howief: The Usability team started not on the cluster and then moved to it subsequently after realizing what it a pain in the ass it was to run their own sites. Or at least that's my understanding.

[8:29pm] Mike_lifeguard: Natalie: what do you mean "showed his hand"?

[8:29pm] Natalie: Any idea why you all seem to be repeating history?

[8:29pm] • Mike_lifeguard can't connect the dots

[8:29pm] Natalie: Mike_lifeguard: Well, if he was charging his full rate, I imagine more people like Sue would be asking what the fuck he's doing all day.

[8:29pm] Natalie: (Sorry, Philippe|Wiki.)

[8:29pm] howief: no i don't

[8:29pm] Natalie: Mike_lifeguard: We can talk more in #wikimedia or something. I'll get in trouble in here, undoubtedly.

[8:30pm] Mike_lifeguard: ah, right

[8:30pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: that one's okay... you didnt threaten violence

[8:30pm] Mike_lifeguard: well, I won't be swearing

[8:30pm] Mike_lifeguard: I hope >_>

[8:30pm] Natalie: I'll only be swearing. It adds color and greats a sense of urgency.

[8:30pm] howief left the chat room. (Quit: howief)

[8:30pm] Natalie: s/greats/creates/

[8:30pm] Natalie: BYE HOWIE.

[8:30pm] Philippe|Wiki: Fuck it. swearing isn't a problem. It's the bit about violence

[8:30pm] • Mike_lifeguard bops Philippe|Wiki with a wifflebat

[8:30pm] Philippe|Wiki: zOMG VIOLENCE

[8:31pm] • Mike_lifeguard drops orgami anvils on ChanServ

[8:31pm] Natalie: Mike_lifeguard: You're not in #wikimedia.

[8:31pm] Philippe|Wiki: ChanServ deserves it.

[8:31pm] • Keegan still smells like basil

[8:31pm] Keegan: I need to shower

[8:31pm] Philippe|Wiki: mmmm, basil and proscuitto on pizza.

[8:31pm] Mike_lifeguard: +garlic

[8:31pm] Philippe|Wiki: OK just out of curiosity... before I declare it dead, does anyone wish to talk strategy?

[8:32pm] Philippe|Wiki: Any questions you're dying to ask me?

[8:32pm] Philippe|Wiki: So that I can deflect them and then disappear?

[8:32pm] Philippe|Wiki: :

[8:32pm] Philippe|Wiki:

[8:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: 3

[8:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: 2

[8:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: 1

[8:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: .9

[8:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: .75

[8:33pm] Mike_lifeguard: How much of the permanent UX stuff is going to be software, if we've thought at all about that?

[8:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mike_lifeguard: how's this for deflection: I dunno.

[8:33pm] Mike_lifeguard: (as opposed to community health stuff, which was mentioned)

[8:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: Honestly, that's a great question, and I don't know the answer to it.

[8:33pm] Philippe|Wiki: But I can tell you this: i'll pass the question to Naoko.

[8:33pm] Mike_lifeguard: great, thanks

[8:34pm] Keegan: Actually, I smell like basil because we made pizza at work. Roasted tomatoes turned into sauce, crawfish boudin, mmm

[8:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: mmmm

[8:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: that sounds delish.

[8:34pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mike_lifeguard: can you actually, flesh that out for me?

[8:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: The community health stuff that Naoko mentioned IS software

[8:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: it's extension to support that, as I undersatnd it.

[8:35pm] Mike_lifeguard: ah, I simply misread then

[8:35pm] Keegan: Here's to Maurreen

[8:35pm] Natalie: "delish" is a pretty gay word.

[8:35pm] Keegan: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Living_People/Stats

[8:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: Yeah, she was talking about things like the social features that were mentioned etc... that's software driven

[8:35pm] Mike_lifeguard: the non-tech side will be for another team to tackle - presumably volunteers, not staff

[8:35pm] Keegan: Turn it blue and hopefully it expands!

[8:35pm] Mike_lifeguard: Natalie: not as gay as "equestrian"

[8:35pm] Philippe|Wiki: The actual user interaction stuff... policy things, etc, will be volunteers, yes.

[8:36pm] Mike_lifeguard: As a matter of fact, I thought Brokeback Mountain should have been called Two Equestrians.

[8:36pm] Natalie: That's pretty gay.

[8:36pm] Mike_lifeguard: inorite?

[8:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: On Wikipedia is a pretty cool blog, actually

[8:36pm] Natalie: And doesn't have as much porn title manipulation potential.

[8:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'm glad to see Maurrrean ere

[8:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: here*

[8:36pm] Natalie: Maurreen *

[8:36pm] Philippe|Wiki: what (s)he said

[8:37pm] Keegan: Solid stats will be good for May

[8:38pm] Philippe|Wiki: Indeed. Keegan, I know it's wearing you out, but I'm really pleased with how that task force is shaping up

[8:38pm] Keegan: Hey thanks

[8:39pm] Philippe|Wiki: lots of hard work, and it shows Please pass that on, would you? I'll try to find folks and say it myself too, but... you know, basically, I'm lazy

[8:39pm] • Mike_lifeguard is irked that everything these days is "omg, blps"

[8:39pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mike_lifeguard: omg...blp....nope, too easy

[8:39pm] Natalie: Yeah, I like it much better when it's "omg, fake legal issue I made up this morning!"

[8:40pm] Natalie: Or, "omg, you're not thinking enough about Zulu Wikinews!"

[8:40pm] Mike_lifeguard: Gerard is a bit annoying

[8:40pm] Philippe|Wiki: (we have a zulu wn?)

[8:40pm] Natalie: I sure as hell hope not.

[8:40pm] Mike_lifeguard: I was going to say "sometimes" but... nope, it is all the time

[8:40pm] Natalie: Hoi!

[8:41pm] Mike_lifeguard: not a good advocacy tactic

[8:41pm] Keegan: I though sign language source is a good idea

[8:41pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mike_lifeguard: same as Natalie, please, let's not call people annoying in public logs, okay?

[8:41pm] Philippe|Wiki: Except when it's natalie we're calling annoying

[8:41pm] Mike_lifeguard: That said, it would be nice if we actually had a Wiki/m/edia Foundation

[8:41pm] Natalie: There was no mention of public logging.

[8:41pm] Keegan: Fact

[8:41pm] Natalie: And it's not noted in the channel topic.

[8:41pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: every single office hours here is logged, and you know it

[8:41pm] Natalie: So that's a no-go!

[8:42pm] Philippe|Wiki: no games

[8:42pm] • Natalie shrugs.

[8:42pm] Natalie: You're annoying.

[8:42pm] Philippe|Wiki: Absolutely.

[8:42pm] Natalie: Also, 8=========D

[8:42pm] Philippe|Wiki: deal with it.

[8:42pm] Natalie: Log that.

[8:42pm] Mike_lifeguard: I don't really mind it being publicly logged, actually.

[8:42pm] Natalie: Well, I'm sure _he's_ aware.

[8:42pm] Natalie: The logs should probs be excluded in robots.txt if they're not already, FWIW.

[8:43pm] Natalie: There's a difference between public logging and public broadcasting.

[8:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie: That's a very good point.

[8:43pm] werdna: I thought I sent howie the changes

[8:43pm] Natalie: Yeah, I'm full of 'em.

[8:43pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'll followup and make sure that's done, if it hasnt' been already

[8:43pm] Natalie: Have your people call my people.

[8:44pm] Philippe|Wiki: My people aren't going to bother with you, you're mean to them.

[8:44pm] Natalie: You can't afford me anyway.

[8:44pm] Philippe|Wiki: True that. You drank me out of house and home.

[8:45pm] Philippe|Wiki: werdna: which changes?

[8:46pm] Mike_lifeguard: where's the LQT test wiki again?

[8:46pm] Philippe|Wiki: liquidthreads.labs.wikimedia.org, i think

[8:46pm] Mike_lifeguard: ah, right

[8:48pm] Mike_lifeguard: Natalie: It is simply /wrong/ from the users' POV that Special:MyContributions shows them editing :[:[Thread:Feedback/Stopping bad signatures?/Mike.lifeguard (4)]]. They didn't edit that, they edited :[:[Talk:Feedback]].

[8:48pm] Mike_lifeguard: Now, it may be implemented that way, but that doesn't change user psychology.

[8:49pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mike_lifeguard: That's a good point. I know he fixed recent changes to more appropriately display...

[8:49pm] Philippe|Wiki: I wonder how big a change it would be to make MyContributions match taht?

[8:50pm] Philippe|Wiki: ping werdna

[8:50pm] Mike_lifeguard: Similarly, hiding implementation details on LQT history pages would be nice - shouldn't that be a normal history page, making it look like section editing?

[8:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: by implementation details, what do you mean?

[8:51pm] werdna: Philippe|Wiki: wazzap

[8:51pm] Natalie: Mike_lifeguard: I disagree. They don't edit "Feedback," they add a thread.

[8:51pm] Philippe|Wiki: read the line above my ping, werdna

[8:51pm] Natalie: And that's pretty intuitive.

[8:51pm] werdna: Philippe|Wiki: Should be in your mail.

[8:51pm] Natalie: Add a thread or a reply.

[8:51pm] Natalie: Either of which is pretty easy to figure out from the logs.

[8:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: I'm dealing with Mike's thought, specifically, werdna

[8:52pm] Mike_lifeguard: Natalie: apparently you think user perception matches reality

[8:52pm] werdna: To: Howie Fung <howiefunggmail.com>

[8:52pm] werdna: CC: Erik Moeller <erikwikimedia.org>, Howie Fung <howiefunggmail.com>, Eugene Eric Kim <eekimblueoxen.com>, Philippe Beaudette <pbeaudettewikimedia.org>, Trevor Parscal <tparscalwikimedia.org>

[8:52pm] • Mike_lifeguard O__o

[8:52pm] werdna: Subject: LiquidThreads UI updates

[8:52pm] werdna: I'm in a lecture, can't really talk too much

[8:52pm] Philippe|Wiki: werdna, dear, that's not the question

[8:52pm] Natalie: Mike_lifeguard: Apparently you think the average user looks at their own contributions list.

[8:53pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mike_lifeguard: Natalie: It is simply /wrong/ from the users' POV that Special:MyContributions shows them editing :[:[Thread:Feedback/Stopping bad signatures?/Mike.lifeguard (4)]]. They didn't edit that, they edited :[:[Talk:Feedback]].

[8:53pm] Philippe|Wiki: :[8:48pm] Mike_lifeguard: Now, it may be implemented that way, but that doesn't change user psychology.

[8:53pm] Philippe|Wiki: :[8:49pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mike_lifeguard: That's a good point. I know he fixed recent changes to more appropriately display...

[8:54pm] Mike_lifeguard: I bet Trevor can settle this

[8:54pm] • Keegan goes to shower

[8:54pm] Keegan: Back in a bit

[8:54pm] werdna: display in Contributions should be customised, I agree.

[8:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: thanks, werdna

[8:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: that's what i was gettin at

[8:54pm] werdna: wanna file a bug?

[8:54pm] Mike_lifeguard: werdna: sure!

[8:54pm] werdna: Philippe|Wiki: you asked "which changes?", I responded

[8:54pm] werdna: what do you think about the new version?

[8:54pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mike_lifeguard: would you file that bug?

[8:55pm] Philippe|Wiki: werdna: i had moved on. follow me. read my mind.

[8:55pm] Mike_lifeguard: btw, I think I figured out that filing bugs that are not guaranteed to be accepted is pretty disheartening

[8:55pm] Philippe|Wiki: heh, then I"ll file it. I have no heart.

[8:55pm] Mike_lifeguard: no no, I'll do it

[8:56pm] werdna: Mike_lifeguard: I don't understand, you don't want to make any requests unless I'm going to grant them?

[8:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: (seriously, Mike_lifeguard I'm happy to... I think you can better explain the technical side of it, but I know you're swamped... steward types are)

[8:56pm] Mike_lifeguard: I was referring to when I said I'd do tests and stuff things in bugzilla for werdna. I never did because that's work, and unless it is going to get attention, it just isn't worth it.

[8:56pm] Philippe|Wiki: werdna: I think it's bigger than that. It's the howevermany thousand bugs that are un-dealt with

[8:56pm] Mike_lifeguard: werdna: Yes. That is what I'm saying.

[8:57pm] werdna: I understand what you mean, maybe I can make an effort to at least respond in some way to most bugs.

[8:57pm] Philippe|Wiki: werdna: physical violence is not a response.

[8:57pm] werdna: I will warn you that much of the time it will be "Would be nice to fix this, I will get to it some day"

[8:58pm] Mike_lifeguard: that'd be nice but I had other ideas, let me think those thoughts for a few minutes...

[8:58pm] werdna: sure, go ahead

[8:58pm] Philippe|Wiki: werdna, i know you're in class... thanks for dropping in. Mike, Natalie, Keegan... i've had a killer day and Im going to disappear if thats' okay with ya'll.

[8:58pm] Philippe|Wiki: Keegan: you smell like basil. I can smell it from here.

[8:58pm] Natalie: I dun care.

[8:59pm] Keegan: Toodles

[8:59pm] Philippe|Wiki: Natalie, you smell like booze. I can smell it from here.

[8:59pm] • Natalie farts.

[8:59pm] Mike_lifeguard: Developer interaction is key. Emailing or chatting with someone who says "yeah, that's a nasty bug that should be fixed for 2.1.2, but could you file it for me?" is far better than blindly stuffing things in a tracker with little hope of it ever being seen much less addressed

[8:59pm] Natalie: Smell that.

[8:59pm] werdna: see you later Philippe|Wiki

[8:59pm] Philippe|Wiki: Mike, i don't know you well enough to harrass you, so... I can smell you from here.

[8:59pm] Philippe|Wiki: Ya'll have a good night.