IRC office hours/2010-06-23

[2010-06-22 21::00:10] eekim: hi everyone

[2010-06-22 21::00:35] mikelifeguard: are we doing something now?

[2010-06-22 21::00:47] eekim: you mean right now?

[2010-06-22 21::01:07] mikelifeguard: I guess wea re

[2010-06-22 21::01:12] eekim: office hours

[2010-06-22 21::01:23] mikelifeguard: sweeeeeet

[2010-06-22 21::01:27] eekim: :-)

[2010-06-22 21::02:16] mikelifeguard: wait, you mean strategy stuff, not office hours don't you? :)

[2010-06-22 21::02:51] eekim: both, actually

[2010-06-22 21::03:37] mikelifeguard: Will there be a strategy wrap-up session at Wikimania?

[2010-06-22 21::03:40] eekim: yes

[2010-06-22 21::04:13] mikelifeguard: So long as the IRL stuff is taped, I will be appeased xD

[2010-06-22 21::04:23] eekim: we'll do something by video

[2010-06-22 21::04:55] mikelifeguard: No

[2010-06-22 21::05:04] >> Philippe joined the chat room.

[2010-06-22 21::05:18] eekim: need to figure out how to get you out there sometime

[2010-06-22 21::05:22] Philippe: hi folks. my apologies for my tardiness. i'm having computer issues.

[2010-06-22 21::05:31] mikelifeguard: scolds Philippe xD

[2010-06-22 21::05:36] Risker: poor Philippe

[2010-06-22 21::05:39] eekim: iPad :-P

[2010-06-22 21::05:45] mikelifeguard: 30 whole seconds late!

[2010-06-22 21::05:47] eekim: (i know, i know, it's your macbook)

[2010-06-22 21::05:52] Risker: eekim, have a wikimania that is in a more accessible place, and I will be there

[2010-06-22 21::05:53] eekim: hey Risker

[2010-06-22 21::05:56] Philippe: (does anyone know how to enable bluetooth using only keyboard shortcuts? My trackpad is dead, and I have a bluetooth mouse, but can't get bluetooth turned on)

[2010-06-22 21::05:58] >> Jamesofur joined the chat room.

[2010-06-22 21::06:02] eekim: where is accessible for you?

[2010-06-22 21::06:06] mikelifeguard: Risker: I definitely would have gone to Montreal

[2010-06-22 21::06:14] Risker: hehe me too

[2010-06-22 21::06:14] eekim: hi Jamesofur

[2010-06-22 21::06:15] mikelifeguard: but Poland and Israel are probably not gonna happen

[2010-06-22 21::06:19] Jamesofur: howdy eekim

[2010-06-22 21::06:32] mikelifeguard: was very *very* unhappy the day of the announcement :x

[2010-06-22 21::06:40] GerardM-: <grin> good very early morning

[2010-06-22 21::06:44] eekim: hey GerardM-

[2010-06-22 21::06:56] Risker: accessible would be North America or most of the European continent. Poland would have been at the outside edge

[2010-06-22 21::07:08] Philippe: n/m, i figured it out... gotomypc is our friend.

[2010-06-22 21::07:12] mikelifeguard: accessible for me is like... walking distance :P

[2010-06-22 21::07:14] GerardM-: well, I had my alarm on ... am still sleepy

[2010-06-22 21::07:54] Jamesofur: yea, Israel is a very tough spot for North Americans :/ still hoping to go next year though no way I'll have the cash for Poland given that I still need to lock down a permanent job :)

[2010-06-22 21::08:42] eekim: if i had to guess, it will be in north america in two years

[2010-06-22 21::08:52] Philippe: my money's on SF 2012

[2010-06-22 21::08:57] Risker: too late for me

[2010-06-22 21::09:00] Jamesofur: thats my hope, would love to have it there

[2010-06-22 21::09:15] Philippe: actually, Bay Area, but probably no SF

[2010-06-22 21::09:25] GerardM-: Well it would help if there was a USA chapter

[2010-06-22 21::09:27] Jamesofur: thinks Berklee or like

[2010-06-22 21::09:44] eekim: Berkeley :-)

[2010-06-22 21::09:48] Jamesofur: yea that

[2010-06-22 21::09:52] Risker: Philippe, dates are required, even if they are approximate

[2010-06-22 21::09:52] Jamesofur: :P

[2010-06-22 21::10:01] GerardM-: having it orgnaised by the office is not really on

[2010-06-22 21::10:11] eekim: won't be organized by WMF

[2010-06-22 21::10:14] Philippe: The office won't do that

[2010-06-22 21::10:25] eekim: local volunteers have been discussing a bid for several months

[2010-06-22 21::10:26] Jamesofur: with wmfnyc and wmfCali we're starting to get to that

[2010-06-22 21::10:35] Philippe: Risker: Wikipedia Day weekend: Jan. 15, 16 & 17, 2011

[2010-06-22 21::10:36] Jamesofur: wmfCali seems to be getting more active

[2010-06-22 21::10:42] Philippe: Sorry, they moved it to 2011, not 2010

[2010-06-22 21::10:58] Jamesofur: nyc actually is actually fairly active already

[2010-06-22 21::11:06] Philippe: and Wikimedia New York is nailing down the dates for East Coast Wikiconference I think.

[2010-06-22 21::11:09] Jamesofur: Philippe: though in August is the eastcoast conference!

[2010-06-22 21::11:11] mikelifeguard: I just noticed how high penetration is in Canada

[2010-06-22 21::11:15] Jamesofur: already have dates I think

[2010-06-22 21::11:19] mikelifeguard: That /should/ bode well for a Canadian chapter

[2010-06-22 21::11:25] eekim: mikelifeguard, yeah, strange, huh?

[2010-06-22 21::11:35] Philippe: Jamesofur: yeah, if you have them, I'd like them. I'm going to try to get to that

[2010-06-22 21::11:40] mikelifeguard: Jamesofur, Risker: Are you Canadian?

[2010-06-22 21::11:51] Philippe: and do a quick visit to the Wiki Central that Wikimedia NYC is doing

[2010-06-22 21::11:55] mikelifeguard: oh, the UR stands for something doesn't it... something in the US :P

[2010-06-22 21::11:55] Risker: mikelifeguard, there are many Canadian wikipedians, but none who have any motivation or willingness to create a chapter. And yes, I am Canadian

[2010-06-22 21::12:07] mikelifeguard: Risker: I know, I'm one of the lazies :)

[2010-06-22 21::12:18] Jamesofur: aye no matter where I am then I want to try and get to it. Bluepeace is going to be pissed if I don't he's already stated it (evidently he needs someone to follow around and since he already met me I'm it)

[2010-06-22 21::12:28] Risker: I don't consider myself lazy, I just have no desire to do conference organization

[2010-06-22 21::12:36] eekim: you are wise, Risker

[2010-06-22 21::12:40] Jamesofur: mikelifeguard: Rochester for school (though that's basically Canada) and from Boston :)

[2010-06-22 21::12:46] Philippe: Risker: smart decision

[2010-06-22 21::13:16] Risker: the only thing our shared department assistant does for me is book the meetings

[2010-06-22 21::13:16] Jamesofur: Philippe: Still technically provisional but looking at August 14-15

[2010-06-22 21::13:21] mikelifeguard: Risker: I'd even do conference organization... I could make myself be interested in Wikimania... but I have no desire to do bureaucratic stuff like bylaws and incorporation

[2010-06-22 21::13:38] eekim: chapter doesn't have to collect dues

[2010-06-22 21::13:39] mikelifeguard: Rochester, eh?

[2010-06-22 21::13:39] Philippe: Thanks, Jamesofur. I'll hold the dates

[2010-06-22 21::13:55] eekim: nor does it have to incorporate. could use a fiscal sponsor.

[2010-06-22 21::13:59] Jamesofur: mikelifeguard: yea but only for about 3 more days :)

[2010-06-22 21::14:00] mikelifeguard: wants to go to school in Rochester

[2010-06-22 21::14:03] Jamesofur: where?

[2010-06-22 21::14:12] Risker: I hope the NYC one goes well, that 14-15 weekend is out for me, sadly

[2010-06-22 21::14:19] Jamesofur: University of to be exact

[2010-06-22 21::14:31] >> GerardM- left the chat room.

[2010-06-22 21::15:00] Philippe: The West Coast one is organized around the tenth anniversary date... should be interesting to be with people that day

[2010-06-22 21::15:17] mikelifeguard: Jamesofur: National Technical Institute for the Deaf -> http://www.ntid.rit.edu/msse/

[2010-06-22 21::15:49] Jamesofur: ahh at rit yea

[2010-06-22 21::16:01] eekim: mikelifeguard, are you deaf?

[2010-06-22 21::16:33] mikelifeguard: eekim: No, I just have an amateur interest in ASL and Deaf stuff generally :P

[2010-06-22 21::17:15] Jamesofur: totally common place to see deaf everywhere mostly because of the school it's very cool.

[2010-06-22 21::17:23] eekim: ah. you and GerardM- must have had some interesting exchanges.

[2010-06-22 21::17:27] Jamesofur: *here

[2010-06-22 21::17:29] eekim: about a possible sign language wikipedia

[2010-06-22 21::17:49] mikelifeguard: eekim: Interesting, yes :\

[2010-06-22 21::17:55] eekim: :-)

[2010-06-22 21::18:48] Philippe: is printing boarding passes. i'm so ready to be back in SF. It's too freakin' hot here.

[2010-06-22 21::19:12] eekim: Philippe, weather's been great here. foggy in my end of the city, though

[2010-06-22 21::19:20] Risker: thank you eekim

[2010-06-22 21::19:21] Philippe: 100 degrees here.

[2010-06-22 21::19:36] >> GerardM- joined the chat room.

[2010-06-22 21::19:39] Jamesofur: shudders

[2010-06-22 21::19:50] Risker: interestingly in the past few days, I have been active in looking at users who focus harassment on female editors

[2010-06-22 21::19:53] mikelifeguard: Philippe: Where are you that's hotter than SF?

[2010-06-22 21::19:58] Jamesofur: been so humid here :/ heat and humidity = suck

[2010-06-22 21::20:04] Philippe: mikelifeguard: I'm in Oklahoma

[2010-06-22 21::20:06] Jamesofur: mikelifeguard: most of the united states?

[2010-06-22 21::20:07] mikelifeguard: I think I would probably die in SF

[2010-06-22 21::20:09] GerardM-: do you agree that as a consequence traffic is more important then numbers of articles in order to rate wikipedias ?

[2010-06-22 21::20:13] eekim: what Jamesofur said

[2010-06-22 21::20:24] Jamesofur: cold is not bad

[2010-06-22 21::20:30] mikelifeguard: Jamesofur: but, but, SF is SUNNY (or at least it is in the tourism videos :P)

[2010-06-22 21::20:31] GerardM-: (my wf router died

[2010-06-22 21::20:36] Risker: I've noticed that most male editors generally have a hard time recognising harassment

[2010-06-22 21::20:42] eekim: GerardM-, I generally don't think that number of articles is a good way to rate Wikipedia

[2010-06-22 21::20:42] Jamesofur: mikelifeguard: SF is constantly 50-70

[2010-06-22 21::21:03] mikelifeguard: Jamesofur: Those are silly numbers, convert them into temperature (real temperature) immediately :P

[2010-06-22 21::21:11] Philippe: If we have a bazillion articles about cities in the US and they're all census data, does that quality make? :)

[2010-06-22 21::21:16] eekim: however, it's fair to suggest that there's a certain size threshold that reflects maturity

[2010-06-22 21::21:41] Jamesofur: mikelifeguard: 10-20ish

[2010-06-22 21::22:05] mikelifeguard: Risker: I haven't followed that thread since I didn't think anything of value would be said. Would you link to your post?

[2010-06-22 21::22:06] eekim: Risker, even after it's pointed out?

[2010-06-22 21::22:09] mikelifeguard: Jamesofur: poifect :)

[2010-06-22 21::23:07] Jamesofur: if you're going to sleep next to the elephant learn their measurement system :P

[2010-06-22 21::23:17] Risker: eekim, in the one that is currently being discussed on WP:ANI there is some recognition once it was pointed out

[2010-06-22 21::23:46] eekim: mikelifeguard: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-June/059317.html

[2010-06-22 21::24:04] mikelifeguard: thanks

[2010-06-22 21::24:09] Jamesofur: Risker: oh no is this on ANI now?

[2010-06-22 21::24:10] mikelifeguard: reads quietly in the corner

[2010-06-22 21::24:48] eekim: Risker, i know it's hard to tell, but do you think there's an age trend?

[2010-06-22 21::24:55] Risker: Jamesofur, it is the discussion of the User:Eugeneacurry block

[2010-06-22 21::24:59] eekim: younger men = more clueless?

[2010-06-22 21::25:09] >> GerardM- left the chat room.

[2010-06-22 21::25:28] Risker: eekim....straight men tend to be more clueless

[2010-06-22 21::25:36] Jamesofur: eekim: I resemble that remark!

[2010-06-22 21::25:52] eekim: Risker :-)

[2010-06-22 21::25:54] >> GerardM- joined the chat room.

[2010-06-22 21::26:13] Risker: but yes, there does seem to be what I would call a "life experience" divide

[2010-06-22 21::26:24] eekim: i should probably resent that remark, but sadly, i can't argue with it :-)

[2010-06-22 21::26:28] GerardM-: eekim the issue is that it would devalue de.wp to fourth place from second

[2010-06-22 21::26:53] Risker: GerardM, it occurs to me that we make too much of those statistics

[2010-06-22 21::26:55] eekim: GerardM-, what do you mean? who's ranking wp by number of articles?

[2010-06-22 21::27:07] GerardM-: the Germans do

[2010-06-22 21::27:28] eekim: why are they doing that?

[2010-06-22 21::27:32] Ashlee: There clearly needs to be a strategy meeting stalkword.

[2010-06-22 21::27:36] mikelifeguard: Risker: as a counterexample, count me in the clueless column (I'm gay) ... I don't really even understand what you mean when you say there is "serious harassment, both on- and off-wiki"

[2010-06-22 21::27:42] GerardM-: because otherwise they are nbr 4

[2010-06-22 21::27:51] eekim: Ashlee: "office hours"

[2010-06-22 21::27:53] Jamesofur: !strategy

[2010-06-22 21::27:54] mikelifeguard: Risker: harassment on the basis of gender?

[2010-06-22 21::27:56] Philippe: Ashlee, well, you should set that up for the one remaining meeting. :_P

[2010-06-22 21::28:16] Ashlee: I have many vulgar suggestions for stalk words.

[2010-06-22 21::28:27] eekim: thank you, Ashlee

[2010-06-22 21::29:08] mikelifeguard: ohgodno

[2010-06-22 21::29:12] GerardM-: when we talk female participation, durova has sadly and quietly disapeared

[2010-06-22 21::29:40] eekim: diversity training doesn't have to be hokie, mikelifeguard

[2010-06-22 21::29:50] GerardM-: what is hokie /

[2010-06-22 21::29:56] eekim: silly

[2010-06-22 21::30:04] mikelifeguard: Nothing is worse for sensitivity to diversity than diversity training. Nothing is worse for morale than morale meetings. And nothing is worse for ethics than ethics classes.

[2010-06-22 21::30:11] Philippe: I think it's important that we not get bogged down in individual cases, GerardM-, and look at trends. If many women, from a particular area of the wiki have disappeared, it could be important and trend worthy.

[2010-06-22 21::30:11] mikelifeguard: It is a perverse idea

[2010-06-22 21::30:31] Philippe: A single case can be an edge case. Particularly when the person is... controversial.

[2010-06-22 21::30:42] eekim: nothing is worse for progress than broad generalities ;-)

[2010-06-22 21::30:45] mikelifeguard: gives Philippe a gold star for word choice

[2010-06-22 21::30:59] Philippe: Thanks, mikelifeguard. I rewrote that one a couple times :)

[2010-06-22 21::31:11] eekim: diversity training can be (provably) valuable

[2010-06-22 21::31:11] Jamesofur: just hopes that nothing bad happened since it seemed relatively unannounced but yea

[2010-06-22 21::32:13] mikelifeguard: I wonder how much of the problems (that I don't see) involve people in the US

[2010-06-22 21::32:38] Jamesofur: I'm not saying it can't be just tha the only way I saw it done didn't really seem to do much :/ (and in many ways I thought it made things worse) but that is only one case

[2010-06-22 21::33:18] >> howief left the chat room.

[2010-06-22 21::33:53] >> GerardM-_ joined the chat room.

[2010-06-22 21::33:53] eekim: Jamesofur, there are lots of bad diversity (and other) trainings

[2010-06-22 21::34:20] >> GerardM- left the chat room.

[2010-06-22 21::34:42] >> GerardM-_ is now known as GerardM-.

[2010-06-22 21::35:16] Risker: I tend to agree. Mikelifeguard asked earlier about harassment on the basis of gender, and I know it is very difficult to explain to those who don't have an intimate experience of it

[2010-06-22 21::35:36] Jamesofur: I'm not going to defend some of the absolute stupidity I've seen from Americans but I do think the "Americans are the worst" thing is often overstated

[2010-06-22 21::36:08] Risker: but I rather doubt one could find a woman over the age of 20 who has not been physically threatened, physically or sexually assaulted, or otherwise harassed in a way that makes them fear for their personal safety. I don't know that men have the same experience

[2010-06-22 21::36:18] mikelifeguard: Jamesofur: No, I really meant "Someone should do careful research on this"

[2010-06-22 21::36:18] Philippe: raises hand

[2010-06-22 21::36:23] mikelifeguard: I have a list of things someone should research

[2010-06-22 21::36:24] eekim: empathy is generally a good value

[2010-06-22 21::36:27] mikelifeguard: it won't be me :O

[2010-06-22 21::36:40] Jamesofur: :/ yea agree Risker

[2010-06-22 21::36:42] eekim: we need to figure out ways to encourage it among all our volunteers

[2010-06-22 21::36:42] Philippe: but regardless, Gavin de Becker's book deals in great depth with the tendency of women to be more in danger, yes.

[2010-06-22 21::36:48] eekim: it's a huge challenge (in society too), but worth it

[2010-06-22 21::36:54] mikelifeguard: Risker: Right, but this is Wikipedia. Who from Wikipedia is harrassing anyone IRL? O_o

[2010-06-22 21::37:02] Philippe: I can think of one.

[2010-06-22 21::37:03] gopher65: Risker: any guy that wasn't on the football team in highschool got the crap beat out of him, or was threatened with that

[2010-06-22 21::37:21] Risker: I can think of a number of examples, mikelifeguard

[2010-06-22 21::37:22] gopher65: Guys don't tend to be sexually harassed as much as women though, in general

[2010-06-22 21::37:30] mikelifeguard: Philippe: But we're supposed to be talking about systematic bias and so on.

[2010-06-22 21::37:31] Jamesofur: I was lucky not to have a school like that

[2010-06-22 21::37:39] eekim: hey gopher65

[2010-06-22 21::37:42] mikelifeguard: gopher65: well... straight guys

[2010-06-22 21::37:54] GerardM-: mikelifeguard the FBI has been involved in IRL situation of Wikipedia harassment

[2010-06-22 21::38:01] Philippe: For the record: I think women on English Wikipedia (I don't know enough about the other projects to comment) are generally not treated as well as should be hoped.

[2010-06-22 21::38:50] eekim: we need to create a safe space so that people can share these stories

[2010-06-22 21::38:52] Risker: I know after my RFA, which is where most people discovered I am a woman, the level of harassment I got in anonymous emails and the like more than tripled

[2010-06-22 21::38:57] eekim: this discussion is a good example of why it's needed

[2010-06-22 21::39:58] Jamesofur: and tbh I've seen occasions where the FBI or others should have been involved and weren't I think people get away with far more on wiki then would be taken in many many other places

[2010-06-22 21::40:03] mikelifeguard: has never even *met* another Wikimedian IRL, much less been harassed :s

[2010-06-22 21::40:03] eekim: you too, Philippe

[2010-06-22 21::40:23] Jamesofur: mikelifeguard: never!?

[2010-06-22 21::40:32] Risker: well, GerardM mentioned Durova earlier, and she has been harassed terribly

[2010-06-22 21::40:34] Jamesofur: books mikelifeguard for the the east coask wikiconference

[2010-06-22 21::40:39] mikelifeguard: Jamesofur: No, never. The nearest Wikimedian I know of is two provinces over

[2010-06-22 21::41:10] Risker: have you checked Wikiproject Nova Scotia? ;p

[2010-06-22 21::41:11] Philippe: I'll be honest: I worry about harrassment of our female staff as well. So far I haven't heard anything so maybe I'm over-concerned (and, in fact, I think the staff that have been harrassed have been male).

[2010-06-22 21::41:29] eekim: Philippe, not that many are community facing

[2010-06-22 21::41:35] Philippe: true.

[2010-06-22 21::41:38] mikelifeguard: Philippe: I'd be more concerned about staff in general.

[2010-06-22 21::41:52] Jamesofur: tbh my first meetup was a great experience that changed some of the ways I look at the project (that sounds really hokey but)

[2010-06-22 21::41:57] >> GerardM- left the chat room.

[2010-06-22 21::41:58] eekim: i'd be surprised if priyanka didn't have stories to share

[2010-06-22 21::42:00] gopher65: Risker: So, what you're saying is that after you made Admin you got harassed more? That's SHOCKING I tell you:P

[2010-06-22 21::42:09] Jamesofur: yea I'd be shocked eekim

[2010-06-22 21::42:12] >> GerardM- joined the chat room.

[2010-06-22 21::42:37] Philippe: Is ANY harrassment of our admins acceptable?

[2010-06-22 21::42:40] Risker: gopher65, I was pretty mild-mannered and didn't do a lot of controversial stuff before I was on arbcom :)

[2010-06-22 21::42:49] Philippe: and I mean true harassment here, not just mean words.

[2010-06-22 21::42:59] gopher65: Maybe, but the mere fact that you're an admin opens you up to the trolls

[2010-06-22 21::43:05] GerardM-: <grr> I hate wifi when it does not work properly

[2010-06-22 21::43:38] Jamesofur: Philippe: no, and that is the issue I feel like huge amounts of it happen that never get followed up on and the culture is just to sit there and take it

[2010-06-22 21::43:43] mikelifeguard: Philippe: This is why I ask specifically what people are talking about. It isn't like I get no weird emails, but that is just what being a steward means. If you're talking about gender issues then it has to be /because of gender/

[2010-06-22 21::43:57] Jamesofur: and while I understand some of the reasoning behind that I'm not totally sure it's the right idea

[2010-06-22 21::44:28] gopher65: I'd also suggest to you that very few people actually read RFA, so unless you put the fact that you're a woman on your userpage, most random users you encounter wouldn't know

[2010-06-22 21::44:35] Jamesofur: mikelifeguard: but it isn't that easy

[2010-06-22 21::44:38] mikelifeguard: Jamesofur: Part of that is having no clear way of pursuing anything... When George Reeves sends you stuff from that library, who do you complain to?

[2010-06-22 21::45:41] Jamesofur: aye but part of that is us never really pursuing it much. He's been doing that crap for 5-6 fucking years now.

[2010-06-22 21::46:19] eekim: i'd be interested in creating a safe space for shifting culture, bringing greater awareness to harassment issues and building greater empathy

[2010-06-22 21::46:27] Jamesofur: there was some reach out to HIM but never to anyone outside that I can see

[2010-06-22 21::46:40] eekim: looking for a way to contribute as a volunteer after strategy project is over

[2010-06-22 21::46:41] Jamesofur: and he's one of the tame ones

[2010-06-22 21::46:44] mikelifeguard: eekim: there is a really cool video project on this, let's see if I can find the URL...

[2010-06-22 21::46:45] eekim: maybe this is one of them

[2010-06-22 21::46:56] gopher65: BTW, is there a place to complain about harassment when it happens?

[2010-06-22 21::47:04] sj_: right. it would be worthwhile to have people who specialize in responding effectively to harrassers the way we've specialized in responding on-wiki to vandalism

[2010-06-22 21::47:12] Jamesofur: omg sj's alive

[2010-06-22 21::47:13] Philippe: hey sj_ :)

[2010-06-22 21::47:31] sj_: hiya :)

[2010-06-22 21::47:34] eekim: howdy sj_

[2010-06-22 21::47:42] Philippe: I think a clear set of definitions for possible reactions is a good place to start as well.

[2010-06-22 21::47:47] mikelifeguard: sj_: There used to be a Wikiproject for that, I think.

[2010-06-22 21::47:51] Philippe: so we're not recreating the wheel every time

[2010-06-22 21::47:58] sj_: and definitely having a community of support that exists just to help those being targeted

[2010-06-22 21::48:03] mikelifeguard: eekim: you can probably follow links from http://www.responseabilityalliance.com/html/global_tolerance.html to find their main website

[2010-06-22 21::48:23] sj_: if it becomes personal and someone starts harrassing people at home or work, we should have a canonical way to increase our response

[2010-06-22 21::48:29] eekim: thanks for the links, mikelifeguard

[2010-06-22 21::48:37] Jamesofur: sj_: aye, en does have a project for that that has some success. I help them along at the moment but they've become more sufficient. but it is mostly email and generally formulaic (and generally ip abuse because they would need CU info to go after accounts)

[2010-06-22 21::48:45] eekim: sj_, has there ever been systematic efforts in this regard?

[2010-06-22 21::49:00] Jamesofur: I've had some success with vandals, generally by calling and falling up directly with the ISPs/schools

[2010-06-22 21::49:10] eekim: Jamesofur, is there a pointer to the en.wp effort?

[2010-06-22 21::49:14] sj_: on en, yes. expanding that to cover people from any project would be good. and I can't help but feel that the Foundation could help amplify those efforts

[2010-06-22 21::49:22] Philippe: accordingly, sj_, I think we should have appropriate responses when personal information (the names of spouses, children, cities, churches) are posted about our contributors as well, when their intent is to harass

[2010-06-22 21::49:24] Risker: well, eekim, the WMF received some professional advice at one point

[2010-06-22 21::49:26] mikelifeguard: Jamesofur: Yes, this is another problem. We probably need Mike's OK to release CU data for targeting such complaints... but I very much doubt he is interested in being involved

[2010-06-22 21::49:38] Jamesofur: eekim: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ABUSE and #wikipedia-en-abuse

[2010-06-22 21::49:45] eekim: thanks, Jamesofur

[2010-06-22 21::49:50] sj_: philippe: that's fair. the same group could standardize the process of asking for takedowns-from-global-caches of such info

[2010-06-22 21::49:56] mikelifeguard: Risker: it is ongoing, I think

[2010-06-22 21::50:07] eekim: Risker, are you talking about the de Becker training?

[2010-06-22 21::50:25] Risker: I think so, eekim...it occurred before I was particularly paying attention to meta issues

[2010-06-22 21::50:26] Jamesofur: mikelifeguard: probably not actually I release it on request to trusted individuals. The privacy policy explicitly allows releasing data for abuse reports

[2010-06-22 21::51:00] sj_: mike: right. the group that tasked with being good at those followups could be explicitly allowed to use CU data for it, once a certain sort of complaint is filed

[2010-06-22 21::51:07] Risker: and I quite disagree with some of the de Becker advice, it has proven to be unsuccessful when dealing with mentally unstable individuals

[2010-06-22 21::51:08] sj_: and we'd want to mention that in our privacy policy and terms of use

[2010-06-22 21::51:11] mikelifeguard: lawl, true enough :)

[2010-06-22 21::51:31] Jamesofur: sj_: it's in the privacy policy :)

[2010-06-22 21::51:42] gopher65: I have one more thing to say on the issue of harassment in general: Trolls/stalkers will use any personal information they can get on you to try and hurt you. The more information you put out there (waves hand in the direction of the interweb), the more they have to hurt you with.

[2010-06-22 21::51:45] mikelifeguard: sj_: As Jamesofur pointed out, this is already technically permitted by the CU and privacy policies

[2010-06-22 21::51:54] Philippe: Risker: there is no "one size fits all" approach. But the advice of de Becker's firm was instrumental in de-escalating at least two incidents that I know of.

[2010-06-22 21::51:57] Jamesofur: Where the user has been vandalizing articles or persistently behaving in a disruptive way, data may be released to a service provider, carrier, or other third-party entity to assist in the targeting of IP blocks, or to assist in the formulation of a complaint to relevant Internet Service Providers,

[2010-06-22 21::52:06] Risker: good to know that, Philippe

[2010-06-22 21::52:10] mikelifeguard: sj_: But as I just demonstrated, most CUs are probably not actually comfortable doing so without some indication from the Foundation it is OK in a particular case

[2010-06-22 21::52:18] eekim: gopher65, interesting point

[2010-06-22 21::52:21] Risker: gopher65, you are absolutely correct

[2010-06-22 21::52:33] eekim: my counterpoint: sometimes, having a greater Internet presence actually works in your favor

[2010-06-22 21::52:43] Jamesofur: will fully admit that he does (only to people I personally trust and swear to follow the policy)

[2010-06-22 21::52:45] mikelifeguard: Jamesofur: <wikilawyer>What's an ISP?</wikilawyer>

[2010-06-22 21::52:53] gopher65: It seems weird to say that we should all hide behind anonymity, but since we have very little recourse to deal with trolls (it isn't like they're standing right next to us and we can punch them in the nose) we really have little other choice.

[2010-06-22 21::53:16] Risker: it isn't always effective...until my boss, without being aware of what would happen, included my name on something that went online, I was able to have a nearly invisible web footprint

[2010-06-22 21::53:19] Jamesofur: mikelifeguard: well that's basically defined there as VERY broad given that they have "other third-party entity"

[2010-06-22 21::53:20] Philippe: Jamesofur: it's also interesting that the section of the policy you reference specifically says "...may be released by volunteers or staff"

[2010-06-22 21::53:29] Jamesofur: nods

[2010-06-22 21::53:41] mikelifeguard: gopher65: Anonymity is actually a strength of the wiki model we use, which Sue is now talking about in every interview I see of hers :)

[2010-06-22 21::53:44] Jamesofur: not to mention the Where it is reasonably necessary to protect the rights, property or safety of the Wikimedia Foundation, its users or the public.

[2010-06-22 21::53:51] Risker: Philippe, I believe that is to cover CUs who call police with suicide or death threats

[2010-06-22 21::53:54] Jamesofur: clause which is "omg elastic clause"

[2010-06-22 21::54:05] Philippe: nods at Risker

[2010-06-22 21::54:07] Risker: has called police once

[2010-06-22 21::54:18] sj_: jamesofur, mike: <nod>

[2010-06-22 21::54:32] Jamesofur: Risker: I think that is what number 6 is for (the one I just quoted about reasonably necessary for safety)

[2010-06-22 21::54:33] gopher65: 0_o

[2010-06-22 21::54:43] mikelifeguard: So, perhaps this is worthy of requesting comments on checkuser-l...?

[2010-06-22 21::54:56] sj_: mike: yes

[2010-06-22 21::55:02] eekim: okay, i'm feeling a bit down by this discussion, and i want to discuss celebration before office hours is over :-)

[2010-06-22 21::55:04] Jamesofur: wow actually we say it all over the place lol

[2010-06-22 21::55:08] Risker: it would be interesting to know what the experience of other CUs on different projects is

[2010-06-22 21::55:12] sj_: eekim: ok!

[2010-06-22 21::55:31] Risker: eekim...you should not feel down, you should feel good that people want to look out for each other

[2010-06-22 21::55:31] sj_: risker: and to have some sort of stats gathered about abuse & reports

[2010-06-22 21::55:41] mikelifeguard: eekim: DID YOU SAY CELEBRATION?

[2010-06-22 21::55:44] eekim: we need to do something really fun and great to celebrate the end of the strategy project

[2010-06-22 21::55:46] mikelifeguard: puts on Celebration

[2010-06-22 21::55:47] Philippe: <3 parties

[2010-06-22 21::55:52] mikelifeguard: which is clearly the best song EVER

[2010-06-22 21::55:53] Jamesofur: lol wow we say it all over the place in the policy, I knew it was there but it's in like 3 of the 6 numbers lol. 3 is "When necessary for investigation of abuse complaints"

[2010-06-22 21::55:53] eekim: Risker, yes, I do

[2010-06-22 21::56:02] Philippe: looks at Jamesofur, who was doing some research on celebrations for us

[2010-06-22 21::56:10] Jamesofur: has some options

[2010-06-22 21::56:13] eekim: and i hope that these office hours have been one of the safe spaces where we can discuss issues like these

[2010-06-22 21::56:17] Jamesofur: going to make a post in the next day or 2

[2010-06-22 21::56:21] eekim: mikelifeguard :-)

[2010-06-22 21::56:24] Philippe: is hoping JamesofUR will post....

[2010-06-22 21::56:25] sj_: definitely. the office hours have been fabulous

[2010-06-22 21::56:28] eekim: Jamesofur, awesome!

[2010-06-22 21::56:37] mikelifeguard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M <- for any cool cats who want to join me

[2010-06-22 21::56:38] Jamesofur: thinks Philippe is slow

[2010-06-22 21::56:44] Philippe: is slow

[2010-06-22 21::57:00] mikelifeguard: gives Philippe speed

[2010-06-22 21::57:03] Jamesofur: <3

[2010-06-22 21::57:04] eekim: at minimum, i hope people will put up the userboxes that Theo1011 created

[2010-06-22 21::57:06] Philippe: lol

[2010-06-22 21::57:09] eekim: let me dig up the URL

[2010-06-22 21::57:09] Risker: eekim and philippe, I think the strategy office hours have been quite useful, if for no other reason encouraging people to think outside their own projects

[2010-06-22 21::57:18] Philippe: Risker, I agree.

[2010-06-22 21::57:22] Jamesofur: aye

[2010-06-22 21::57:37] Philippe: And, by the way- when printed, the office hours transcripts are (at 11point font) nearly 450 pages.

[2010-06-22 21::57:39] Jamesofur: imo there should be more regular meetings of the sort even if they aren't under a specific header

[2010-06-22 21::57:42] sj_: we should continue them, since wikimedia strategy is a perpetual idea

[2010-06-22 21::57:49] eekim: i think that would be great

[2010-06-22 21::57:52] sj_: maybe in #wikimedia itself? if that's a suitably safe space

[2010-06-22 21::58:07] Philippe: sj_: provided someone can own them, i agree. I think nothing kills a project faster than no one having a sense of ownership :)

[2010-06-22 21::58:07] eekim: the reason we created our own channel was so that we could continuously log the channel

[2010-06-22 21::58:15] mikelifeguard: Philippe: omg, why would you do such a thing?! O_O

[2010-06-22 21::58:20] Philippe: mikelifeguard: I didn't :)

[2010-06-22 21::58:24] Jamesofur: sj_: since no one actually talks there it is fairly free ;)

[2010-06-22 21::58:24] mikelifeguard: phew :P

[2010-06-22 21::58:32] sj_: Jamesofur: precisely

[2010-06-22 21::58:52] eekim: i'd be in favor of moving discussions into #wikimedia, but i think it's important that these discussions be logged

[2010-06-22 21::58:59] sj_: Jamesofur: it used to be a place for strategy discussions, among other things :)

[2010-06-22 21::59:15] eekim: frankly, i think it contributes to making these discussions more of a safe space

[2010-06-22 21::59:19] sj_: yes

[2010-06-22 21::59:27] Jamesofur: there is also the meeting channel but I like having it in #wikimedia better

[2010-06-22 21::59:31] eekim: yes, that would be good

[2010-06-22 21::59:49] sj_: do we have any irc bot-writers?

[2010-06-22 21::59:55] mikelifeguard: hides

[2010-06-22 21::59:58] Philippe: looks at mikelifeguard

[2010-06-22 22::00:07] eekim: userbox and party thread is at: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Village_pump/en&offset=20100618005955#Let.27s_plan_a_party.21_5695

[2010-06-22 22::00:08] Jamesofur: sj_: depends what you want it for

[2010-06-22 22::00:11] sj_: ;) there are some nice meetbot scripts

[2010-06-22 22::00:12] mikelifeguard: It shouldn't be hard, but I can't do it until after my finals

[2010-06-22 22::00:16] eekim: sj_, gotta be an open source irc logger we can reuse

[2010-06-22 22::00:20] Jamesofur: but yea /me looks at mikelifeguard

[2010-06-22 22::00:47] mikelifeguard: someone has to remember to annoy me in n days' time where n is...

[2010-06-22 22::00:54] Jamesofur: yea I'm sure there is

[2010-06-22 22::00:55] eekim: it would make me very happy if these office hours continued

[2010-06-22 22::00:59] mikelifeguard: 8

[2010-06-22 22::01:02] Philippe: pulls out his calendar to make a note to annoy mikelifeguard

[2010-06-22 22::01:03] eekim: maybe office hours is a misnomer

[2010-06-22 22::01:20] mikelifeguard: eekim: it just gets confused with the other office hours :)

[2010-06-22 22::01:43] sj_: mike: right. eekim: regular strategy meetings?

[2010-06-22 22::01:53] eekim: hate calling them "meetings"

[2010-06-22 22::01:55] Philippe: (for the record, they stole the name from us)

[2010-06-22 22::02:01] eekim: exactly :-)

[2010-06-22 22::02:11] mikelifeguard: eekim: me too, meetup is much better

[2010-06-22 22::02:11] Jamesofur: actually I can use supybot to log

[2010-06-22 22::02:17] eekim: imitation is the greatest form of flattery

[2010-06-22 22::02:20] Jamesofur: I could have that set up easily so

[2010-06-22 22::02:26] eekim: that would be excellent, Jamesofur

[2010-06-22 22::02:28] sj_: eekim: periods of synchronous strategizing?

[2010-06-22 22::02:32] mikelifeguard: Jamesofur: does it do what they want though?

[2010-06-22 22::02:34] eekim: laughs

[2010-06-22 22::02:35] mikelifeguard: hopes so

[2010-06-22 22::02:44] eekim: sj_, can you spell that in eEnglish?

[2010-06-22 22::02:49] Philippe: (say no, and watch him scream)

[2010-06-22 22::02:50] Jamesofur: mikelifeguard: well what do we want, logging and being able to turn it on and off from on IRC?

[2010-06-22 22::03:05] sj_: nnnooe

[2010-06-22 22::03:13] mikelifeguard: Jamesofur: Yes, can people in the channel toggle on/off

[2010-06-22 22::03:27] Jamesofur: aye, would probably want to make it op run eh?

[2010-06-22 22::03:34] mikelifeguard: sure

[2010-06-22 22::03:36] Jamesofur: like any op could turn it on/off

[2010-06-22 22::03:44] sj_: james: preferably with a visible change, say in the bot name?, when it's logging

[2010-06-22 22::03:47] mikelifeguard: and we want the logs publicly available via web somewhere

[2010-06-22 22::04:21] Jamesofur: sj_: yea that wouldn't be bad

[2010-06-22 22::04:32] Philippe: Folks, I have to duck off, because I have still to pack my bags for my flight tomorrow... but I hope this conversation continues. Requirements definition = good.

[2010-06-22 22::04:47] eekim: i'll hang out for a few more minutes

[2010-06-22 22::04:50] Risker: good night Philippe, safe travels

[2010-06-22 22::04:52] Jamesofur: enjoy the flight

[2010-06-22 22::04:53] Philippe: speaking of logs, Eekim, if you'll email me this one, i'll get it up :)

[2010-06-22 22::05:02] sj_: philippe: they stole the name, but they claimed OFFICE first :)

[2010-06-22 22::05:04] eekim: no worries, Philippe. i'll take care of them.

[2010-06-22 22::05:04] sj_: 'night pihlippe!

[2010-06-22 22::05:13] Philippe: sj_: they're thieves. But they're loveable :)

[2010-06-22 22::05:21] eekim: i think i might have figured out this whole "wiki" thing ;-)

[2010-06-22 22::05:22] Jamesofur: hmmm my guess is there is an integration with this and the mediawiki api to have it write somewhere...

[2010-06-22 22::05:26] mikelifeguard: Jamesofur: mind figuring out if it meets requirements? if not, someone can make me do it

[2010-06-22 22::05:29] Philippe: eekim: editing is hard.

[2010-06-22 22::05:29] Jamesofur: if not I could make it post it on my toolserver account

[2010-06-22 22::05:29] sj_: err, and philippe* too.

[2010-06-22 22::05:31] Philippe: :-P

[2010-06-22 22::05:36] >> Philippe left the chat room.

[2010-06-22 22::05:40] Jamesofur: mikelifeguard: yea I'll play around and see how bad it would be to get it working

[2010-06-22 22::05:45] >> GerardM- left the chat room.

[2010-06-22 22::05:50] eekim: awesome

[2010-06-22 22::05:52] mikelifeguard: thanks

[2010-06-22 22::05:55] sj_: cool. thanks james

[2010-06-22 22::06:06] eekim: this would be a welcome improvement and would enable a lot of stuff

[2010-06-22 22::06:12] mikelifeguard: sleeps

[2010-06-22 22::06:13] eekim: okay, before i go...

[2010-06-22 22::07:55] sj_: ok. and eekim: maybe we could have a ~plenary group activity at wikimania involving the strategy...

[2010-06-22 22::08:05] eekim: absolutely

[2010-06-22 22::09:12] Jamesofur: heh

[2010-06-22 22::09:26] Risker: well, you /will/ be in Poland....

[2010-06-22 22::09:32] eekim: :-)

[2010-06-22 22::09:44] Jamesofur: yea, but it isn't Ireland

[2010-06-22 22::09:46] eekim: hope y'all will lift a glass with us

[2010-06-22 22::10:00] Jamesofur: of course, solidarity :)

[2010-06-22 22::10:05] Risker: ha!

[2010-06-22 22::10:15] >> Risker left the chat room.

[2010-06-22 22::10:18] eekim: 'night everybody

[2010-06-22 22::10:24] Jamesofur: night :)

[2010-06-22 22::10:24] eekim: thanks for another great office hour

[2010-06-22 22::10:51] Jamesofur: bye!

[2010-06-22 22::10:57] >> You left the room.