Task force/Offline/IRC/2009-12-29

[2009-12-29 09::54:04] >> brianmc joined the chat room.

[2009-12-29 09::59:21] >> randmontoya joined the chat room.

[2009-12-29 09::59:56] >> walkerma joined the chat room.

[2009-12-29 10::00:14] >> brianmc left the chat room.

[2009-12-29 10::00:37] eekim: hi walkerma

[2009-12-29 10::00:41] >> brianmc joined the chat room.

[2009-12-29 10::00:44] walkerma: Hi pm27, Kelson, eekim

[2009-12-29 10::00:56] eekim: hi pm27, hi Kelson

[2009-12-29 10::00:58] Kelson: walkerma: hi

[2009-12-29 10::01:05] pm27: hi walkerma and all

[2009-12-29 10::01:16] Kelson: eekim: hi

[2009-12-29 10::01:47] walkerma: We're having an offline taskforce meeting now - but just informal, since several of the group are away

[2009-12-29 10::02:21] >> Nytux joined the chat room.

[2009-12-29 10::02:30] walkerma: wizzy has done a lot of work on writing summaries and recommendations, which is really great

[2009-12-29 10::02:33] pm27: walkerma: Nytux is Fabien

[2009-12-29 10::02:43] walkerma: Hi Nytux!

[2009-12-29 10::02:55] Nytux: hello all

[2009-12-29 10::03:23] eekim: hi nytux

[2009-12-29 10::05:06] walkerma: Others - Have you had a chance to look over these recommendations?

[2009-12-29 10::05:42] eekim: for example, there are lots of potential strategies for improving reuse of WM content

[2009-12-29 10::06:25] walkerma: eekim, yes, we can add that in. One page that answers the basic questions - though it's very old - is here:

[2009-12-29 10::06:40] eekim: it may seem self-evident, but not everyone will know or agree

[2009-12-29 10::08:07] walkerma: eekim: All of those points you mention came about because of the "why" question originally - they aren't just random discussion points

[2009-12-29 10::08:38] eekim: walkerma, I figured as much

[2009-12-29 10::09:38] walkerma: One problem we always tend to have, though, is that when you get a lot of technical people together, they all like to talk about technology....! Better that problem than the other way round, though, not having the technical people we need.

[2009-12-29 10::10:07] eekim: true enough

[2009-12-29 10::11:16] walkerma: It's the same problem I face as a scientist

[2009-12-29 10::11:26] eekim: perhaps discuss the original mandate questions in the context of the work you've now done

[2009-12-29 10::12:13] walkerma: The task force should develop answers to the following questions:

[2009-12-29 10::13:16] eekim: i think they're overall good recommendations

[2009-12-29 10::13:26] walkerma: The only ones we haven't discussed really are 5 and 6

[2009-12-29 10::13:44] eekim: for example, what's the answer to 1?

[2009-12-29 10::15:04] walkerma: No. 1 was discussed in the first meeting. I think we concluded that we couldn't get reliable estimates of the effects, especially as we didn't know what the effects would be caused by

[2009-12-29 10::15:25] eekim: do you still feel that way?

[2009-12-29 10::16:56] walkerma: Yes, I think so - I think there are too many variables involved to be able to make meaningful predictions. I see no. 1 as a reminder that we are trying to meet the needs of as many people as possible, not just to focus on one small segment

[2009-12-29 10::17:08] pm27: I have no answer for my question about the last meeting

[2009-12-29 10::18:01] eekim: sorry, pm27, missed your question; could you repeat?

[2009-12-29 10::18:41] pm27: I am not understand why we need to meet all the week

[2009-12-29 10::19:30] Nytux: well, there is no solution for 6 yet

[2009-12-29 10::20:35] eekim: walkerma, if that's the feeling of this group, you should make that clear. that sort of explicit statement is valuable, because it shows others you've explored the question.

[2009-12-29 10::21:41] walkerma: With no. 1 we have tried to reference numbers whenever possible to back up points - for example, with cellphone usage in developing countries

[2009-12-29 10::22:54] eekim: great

[2009-12-29 10::23:03] walkerma: pm27: I don't understand your question. Both solutions to what? Which solutions in particular? Are you referring to the recommendations?

[2009-12-29 10::23:05] eekim: would like to see those numbers integrated into the work on the wiki

[2009-12-29 10::23:17] walkerma: eekim: certainly

[2009-12-29 10::23:36] pm27: to make offline reader with a free format of file

[2009-12-29 10::24:14] Nytux: these are technical solution for offline readers on computers

[2009-12-29 10::24:51] walkerma: The problem comes in that we can't reliably predict that (say) in Tanzania that the 1 million people in 2015 will have cellphones with over 1 GB of storage and that they will favor the Nokia format over the others, and that they will want dictionary information but not medical information

[2009-12-29 10::25:41] eekim: walkerma, no one is expecting a perfect prediction. obviously, no one can predict the future.

[2009-12-29 10::25:55] Nytux: well, once mozilla have made the technology xul available on cellphones, we'll be good :)

[2009-12-29 10::26:18] eekim: however, we can say that there are x number of people with cellphones now without reliable internet access or computers

[2009-12-29 10::26:33] walkerma: eekim: I think all we can offer is very broad numbers, with very rough predictions, like "estimated cellphone usage in developing countries will be XXX by 2013"

[2009-12-29 10::26:41] eekim: broad numbers are fine

[2009-12-29 10::27:02] Nytux: ( the project fennec intends to do this )

[2009-12-29 10::27:12] eekim: all numbers will be broad when you look five years out

[2009-12-29 10::28:48] walkerma: eekim: Even such numbers are sketchy, when things are in flux. I didn't bother having internet at home for a long time because I had great internet at work - so did I count or not? What about people using internet cafes? What about using cellphones to access the internet? What about people using the internet in schools - if our aims are educational, that may be good for now. And all that...

[2009-12-29 10::29:26] eekim: how much faster would things evolve if we did _something_?

[2009-12-29 10::30:11] walkerma: pm27: As I see it, the offline reader is just one part of what is needed. If you look over the recommendations, you can see some of that

[2009-12-29 10::31:01] eekim: walkerma, i think you're getting too caught up with the details :-)

[2009-12-29 10::31:33] walkerma: eekim: I like those questions - and I think they should provide the focus for our last two weeks of work

[2009-12-29 10::31:34] eekim: (a surprisingly low number in my opinion)

[2009-12-29 10::36:00] pm27: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Afr%3Aofficial&hs=C61&q=okawix+torrent&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

[2009-12-29 10::36:05] walkerma: eekim: Two problems - (a) it's hard to get numbers relating to developing countries (a major focus), and (b) it's hard to predict the future reliably when you're dealing with the introduction of untested new technology into places where similar technology has not been widely used yet

[2009-12-29 10::36:36] pm27: 1. "How many more people will use Wikipedia etc. if we do this?"

[2009-12-29 10::37:11] eekim: i'm not asking you to predict the future. i'm asking you to make an educated guess based on what we do know.

[2009-12-29 10::37:19] pm27: 4. What tools and support are necessary to make those strategies work? ==> we have all the dump ready to use

[2009-12-29 10::37:34] eekim: you're making recommendations. those recommendations need to be based on something.

[2009-12-29 10::38:02] walkerma: eekim: Agreed

[2009-12-29 10::38:17] pm27: >5. Who is needed to support this strategy (e.g., Wikimedia Foundation, chapters, individual volunteers, external non-profit and for-profit partners), and what do they need to do? ==> We have in the past a tradmark to use

[2009-12-29 10::39:11] eekim: pm27, what would we need to do to get more readers onto cell phones by default?

[2009-12-29 10::39:50] pm27: just waiting http://www.techtree.com/India/News/Firefox_Fennec_Launch_Imminent/551-108325-580.html

[2009-12-29 10::40:50] eekim: what makes you so certain that Fennec will be ubiquitous on mobile?

[2009-12-29 10::41:26] pm27: because it s a very strategic position for Mozilla Fondation

[2009-12-29 10::41:35] walkerma: pm27: Okawix is not available in shops in Burkina Faso. How do you plan to change that? (eekim: Burkina Faso is just supposed to be a representative example of a Francophone country)

[2009-12-29 10::41:58] eekim: the desktop is strategic for the Mozilla Foundation also, but Firefox is not ubiquitous there

[2009-12-29 10::42:08] walkerma: How will WP be available in schools in Burkina Faso?

[2009-12-29 10::42:11] eekim: good question, walkerma

[2009-12-29 10::43:16] pm27: We have in contact with some people who want to install it in school

[2009-12-29 10::44:06] walkerma: OK, why not? Those are the sorts of questions we're asking

[2009-12-29 10::45:37] Nytux: we are selling usb keys with fr dumps

[2009-12-29 10::45:45] pm27: http://blog.wikiwix.com/fr/2009/05/14/recherchons-beta-testeur-pour-okawix/ see the comment 39

[2009-12-29 10::46:38] eekim: here's the direct link: http://blog.wikiwix.com/fr/2009/05/14/recherchons-beta-testeur-pour-okawix/#comment-7170

[2009-12-29 10::47:00] pm27: thank you eekim :)

[2009-12-29 10::47:15] eekim: np :-)

[2009-12-29 10::47:46] pm27: I propose all the wikimedia association to sell usb key

[2009-12-29 10::47:49] eekim: i think this comment reflects the strength of this Task Force's first recommendation

[2009-12-29 10::49:21] pm27: http://okawix.com/?page=home&lang=en

[2009-12-29 10::49:28] eekim: you can say things like, "There are already a number of offline projects out there: Okawix, etc. What all of these projects have in common is that they rely on XML dumps for data. Because these dumps are not very structured, it's hard to get updated, useful data on these readers."

[2009-12-29 10::50:00] pm27: we don't use XML dumps dor data eekim

[2009-12-29 10::50:03] Nytux: neither okawix nor kiwix are based on xml dumps

[2009-12-29 10::50:16] eekim: sorry, scratch the "XML" part

[2009-12-29 10::50:18] Nytux: they use a compressed format, specially designed for offline dumps

[2009-12-29 10::50:33] eekim: i understand. was typing too fast.

[2009-12-29 10::51:36] Nytux: well, to sum up our point, there are solutions for free, available for download (software and dumps), the central question is the delivery

[2009-12-29 10::51:55] walkerma: pm27: By recommending overall strategies to the Foundation, we can make sure that we make it much easier for commenter no. 39 to (a) find out what is available and (b) get it. We don't want to reach just one orphanage in Sierra Leone, we want to reach hundreds, all over Africa

[2009-12-29 10::52:12] >> Patrice joined the chat room.

[2009-12-29 10::52:13] eekim: nicely said, Nytux and walkerma

[2009-12-29 10::52:30] walkerma: The problems are less technical at this point, and more logistical, I think

[2009-12-29 10::52:33] eekim: they are recommendations to the entire movement

[2009-12-29 10::52:39] walkerma: OK, thanks

[2009-12-29 10::52:41] eekim: as reflected in question 5

[2009-12-29 10::52:49] walkerma: Good point

[2009-12-29 10::52:56] eekim: so what role could Chapters play, for example? volunteers? partners? etc.

[2009-12-29 10::53:19] walkerma: eekim: I think that could perhaps make a good agenda for a meeting on January 5th

[2009-12-29 10::53:27] eekim: sounds great

[2009-12-29 10::55:17] Nytux: in France, we are about to have a partnership with a big supermarket to sell usb key with the french dumps

[2009-12-29 10::55:37] eekim: wow, excellent!

[2009-12-29 10::55:59] walkerma: pm27: I'm reminded of when I watched an inventor's competition on TV. The winner designed a really cheap way to make a toilet flush silently. That was in 1979 or so. Thirty years later, every toilet I know makes a loud noise and wakes people in the night. Why don't we all have silent toilets? The technology came out before the AppleII! In other words, we need more than the technology

[2009-12-29 10::55:59] Nytux: but ... we don't have the right to use the logo :)

[2009-12-29 10::56:43] walkerma: Nytux: We'll have to work on the logo issue

[2009-12-29 10::57:02] Patrice: Can you use the word Wikipedia on the USB key?

[2009-12-29 10::57:20] eekim: perhaps it would be worth pulling mike godwin onto some of these conversations?

[2009-12-29 10::57:43] Nytux: Patrice: yes, but not the logo

[2009-12-29 10::58:13] Patrice: how much would it cost (retail price)?

[2009-12-29 10::58:23] eekim: walkerma, excellent anecdote :-)

[2009-12-29 10::58:23] Nytux: the supermarker will "create" a logo

[2009-12-29 10::59:19] Patrice: can you say the name of this retailer?

[2009-12-29 10::59:37] Nytux: not yet :)

[2009-12-29 11::01:45] eekim: thanks for organizing this, walkerma, and thanks everyone for your continued good work

[2009-12-29 11::02:23] walkerma: eekim: Thanks a lot for keeping us focused!

[2009-12-29 11::02:30] eekim: :-)

[2009-12-29 11::02:44] >> You left the room.