Quote on heavy duty edit warriors

Its worse than that. You can attack. And accuse, malign, claim we've discussed the dud cite that you evaded discussing... and keep doing it weeks if not months before stuff happens. And then the poor buggers have to deal with his socks, or whatever else happens.

That's the reality of serious edit warriors.

Tendentious users with mild bias, misconception, etc, can be almost as bad, without meaning to.

Ok so if people go on their own way despite the community standards then perhaps they shouldnt be engaging in a collaborative community. Maybe the people we want collaborating are those who are actually WANT to collaborate -- the ones who truly GET it.

Back to the brand. What IS Wikipedia?

How does a person who is ego driven fit into what Wikipedia IS?

Maybe they dont, and maybe that is OKAY.

Everyone who works on this matters, it matters what they do, how they do it, how they treat other people.

If they dont buy into the brand, maybe they shouldnt be playing in the "game".

why do you think I keep talking about brand? because it drives everything else. It even drives getting rid of people who gum up the works whose actions are totally inconsistent with the brand/mission/vision/goal.

there just seems to be this idea that Wikipedia will take everyone and their ideas regardless of how they act or what they think. And that idea drives a lot of behavior on Wikipedia.

But I do not think that idea is consistent with what Wikipedia is. You cant have a world class encyclopedia that is free that allows people to abuse the privilege of sharing information with the world.

do you see the shift? we go from accepting everything that everyone wants to give us to only that (conduct, information, content) which is consistent with what Wikipedia is and where Wikipedia is going. That isnt copping out or leaving anyone out, that is making the choice that needs to be made in order for Wikipedia to do what it set out to do.

Now, if part of the brand is to include absolutely everyone without any any reservations or guidelines or censure, then why worry about what anyone does?

Can you see why identifying the brand and understanding it is so key?

We're coming to the same places, just via different routes. That's ok. I think what's important is that the space is explored from different perspectives and viewpoints, and we end up being able to work together on matters however they arise - not that we necessarily all use the same methodology to explore.

I couldn't approach this using branding as you would, it just isn't how I think through it. Likely you'll find some things I wouldn't. For you, it gives a structure that works, like mine would for me. But you can understand mine, I can understand yours, and we collaborate :)

We will both come to the same point, "should we accept just anyone". We both understand the philosophical matters driving it, the expectations, the perceptions and editorial and content issues. How we got there... we may each have got there different ways.

I tend to be more - desired experience, current situation, what's going on, and what might bridge the gap. I don't think I could do it purely top down starting at "what's the brand". Too distant. Useful to reflect on, but a bit too distant to work with myself. That others can, is good. Multiple approaches.

Bit of self-disclosure for you :) Peace :)

@FT2

I think I just got where you are missing brand. Brand isnt top down, it's organic. Certain things about brand, like values and principles, remain static, but the brand evolves -- dependent on a number of variables such as who gets involved and where it moves to, I can think of Apple Computer as a perfect example of this evolution.

Brand is both evocative of the sum of the elements of the company and personalized by the sum of the elements of the company (those are the elements that lead to its evolution.)

A solid brand empowers both customers/users and employees/users (Wikipedia has more blur between traditional customer/employee roles) and those who supply to the brand (also a blur here at Wikipedia.)

Brand is extremely responsive, yet keeps a consistency to it that is, as prior stated, evocative of its values and core principles and all of the parts of the brand.

Thus, brand is NOT top down. Brand is, and I hate to use this analogy, a bit like a soul that permeates everything. Thus, everything that comes from the brand needs to be "in touch" with it, that is consistent with it.

If you can instead think of brand as living and breathing, like the blood and soul of a company, then you may get past thinking of it as top down. If you instead use a brand as a compass, it will help guide "what might bridge the gap" because North is always North. If I set my eyes to the North Star, I always get home.

"What Wikipedia is (or should be) about" - valid paraphrase?

My concern I guess is that "what is the is-ness of Wikipedia" will be great guidance in some areas, and help to reach good decisions in others. But we're not yet at the refined point needed for sophistry. We're at a more basic point, where it's as basic as "what big inroads might matter most and be most achievable". Further along the road we may need to refine this, but for now we just need to be in the right ballpark.

80/20 rule, we're still facing gross (= very crude and unsubtle) quality matters and whatever the brand may be, whatever methodology one uses to decide where we're at, those are still going to be most of the "big deal" on quality for now, and the solutions will probably be similar, because the problems are gross not subtle.

I'll have a go at working in your way of thinking, and/or leave that aspect to those who can think that way better.

It seems you're after an overall framework of "what are we all about here" to help identify and guide quality, and the prioritizing of quality issues and nature of any recommended actions. I'm fine with that, as long as I don't have to think too hard about the is-ness of the which, and hurt my neurones :)

I do take one point where this can help. Namely, whether we need to suggest any very significant changes up front, to the structure/ethos/traditional stances/communal beliefs related to Wikipedia, as a prerequisite to getting quality on a better track for future. Asking "what do we want in 5 years time" or "what has to be, to be the best we can in 5 years", is an important perspective. I'm in favor of grasping nettles early if needed, and as we grew up randomly it's quite likely we've promulgated some stuff that's outdated and even harmful long term, and we should look critically for such matters.

Any better? :)

not really. I believe you are still seeing brand as top down, rather than as the driver in the process. Thus if you do not see it as the driver, you cannot understand how brand dictates decisions and that all decisions must be in concert with brand, including anything having to do with quality.

I do not know what analogy to use that would communicate this, however, this website, www.ries.com, may help. Try looking at the video about their new book, War in the Boardroom. Al Ries wrote The Ten Immutable laws of Branding, a key work in this field.

upon reread of your post a few thoughts did not sink in well enough before I posted. I think I see where you are getting some of the points. Is "grasping nettles" (perhaps doing that which is painful or uncomfortable) the concept of working on defining what the brand for Wikipedia is, or figuring out what the compass is?

Perhaps you don't have to think about the IS-ness, perhaps someone else can do it for you? Then you can just follow guidelines that another puts in place? That doesn't seem to be your speed, but it could work if you wished it to.

I handle brands with incredible care. I have been fortunate to handle a number of them. Wikipedia is no different to me -- to be handled with care.