Starting at the Beginning

I don't agree about firm deliverables. I think we have ideas that have no cohesive framework.

So far, I am still not experiencing anything cohesive coming together or "working." There are fragments. There is no "thread" no backbone holding this all together, except the assumptions all of us have about Wikipedia, which may or may not be accurate or held in common. Which is why I keep going back to looking at what Wikipedia is, how it does what it does and where it is going.That is also why I suggested above a new beginning -- to take stock, create a framework and put all the "threads" inot some sort of organization.

"Top down" from too abstruse a level is going to be a vast issue. I've tried to tackle a framework from a slightly different perspective. See the thread above, "Friends and enemies of quality". Any use?

I'm not talking top down. I am talking about working in parallel. If you can imagine renovating a building. you have this framework there, and you have to figure out what works and what doesnt. Then you get to figure out new layouts within the defined rooms that are being kept. Like: you have this great bedroom you want to keep but the colors of the walls dont work or the bathroom has only one sink. You work in parallel with what is and how you want it to be over time. That is what I am talking about with framework -- it exists regardless, and big changes, like changing the foundation or reframing walls are big deals but changing out sinks isnt such a big deal. This isnt top down, it's sideways.

FT2; I also am not talking about a top down approach, although I would not be opposed to that. I only feel we need to be more organized and methodical about how we approach this problem (i.e. the problem of how to improve quality). Discussion lists are good for discussion, but they do not provide a summarized and organized presentation of the material. We can consider each thread a "forum", but forums don't provide a good product either. Using my job as an example, if I was to turn in a threaded discussion as a final product, I would likely be fired. My boss and other stakeholders are not going to want to wade through a discussion list to understand an issue and how we reached a conclusion. The information has to be packaged. Also, the various threads are popping up arbitrarily based on whatever comes to mind of each Task Force member. It is unclear to me what our Task Force priorities are, or should be, or why I should spend my time on one particular thread versus another. I don't mean to come across as critical of what has been done. I really think that everyone is providing a lot of good input.

The process I'm seeing is slightly more open than that. A threaded text as a final product would indeed be unwise. But consider, we have a vast and strange area of uncertain characteristics, and we need to find major orienting points quickly. Those exploring also come from very different backgrounds, philosophies, conceptual approaches, and expectations.

What I'm seeing is that the landscape itself is holographic. Wherever we explore, if we do it well, we'll probably come to the same (or similar) final conclusions.

We're starting by creating threads on a range of ideas that come to different people's minds, some looking at the structures and philosophies, some practicalities, some small items that cause known problems. What I think'll happen is some kind of common understandings intuited through these, of common themes that keep coming up in different guises. That in turn will inform an overview that maps to the issues as they are in reality (not in concept), which we can then turn around and use as a guide to check for exceptions, frame our thinking, and ask "is this what we want".

Not saying that's "how to do it", but it's what I think we're seeing, and projecting forward, what will come out of it.

I second this.

I believe those micro discussions, that explore the entire minutaie (thank God for spell checker on that word) of a concept can be extremely productive in a thinktank environment, but this is not specifically a thinktank. This is a group that MUST have recommendations by a certain date that is less than 2 months away.

Yes, we need certain aspects of a thinktank here, but it can be done within a framework that will organize the thoughts and cause them to be cohesive enough to hopefully spawn recommendations.

Bhneihouse; I agree we don't have any firm deliverables yet. We have not even identified what we need to deliver. I think I am in agreement with you. You are referring to a framework, and I am calling it a plan or approach. Regardless of the specifics and what we call it, we need some kind of structured approach to make sure we are focusing on the right issues and doing the right research. Unless we do that, we will just continue discussing issues endlessly. The discussion and ideas presented so far really show a lot of creativity, but we need to harness it and provide a clear direction. We also need a way to ensure that we take into account all the other ideas that have been submitted by other users throughout the Wikimedia projects.

@MissionInn.Jim

ditto. and discussing issues endlessly will not get us where we need to go.

"we need a way to ensure that we take into account..." that is why I am suggesting mapping out the framework, which can work as a blueprint or guide of what already exists and then we can use things like a "newbie user experience" as a litmus test for the workability of existing ideas/processes/concepts.

thanks.